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Post by JohnV on Jun 11, 2020 9:05:35 GMT
And suddenly a black man being killed by the forces of law and order, before our very eyes, is forgotten ... we can instead become indignant and anxious about Victorian memorabilia which is obviously more important. Rog No it is not forgotten ...... but the BLM movement is doing the obscuring of the facts
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 10:14:49 GMT
Should we spend energy defending history ... or spend energy making the changes necessary ? It's not about the history ... it's about our (society's) thinking . Rog No, it's about a minority group trying to take over a majority group and change the world order. This is interesting: uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund?fbclid=IwAR3fWIH2EfG-b39q02uxCK14wX9zn2DfuHo6ybx4CyN1xXj6QwGNaV7JhScQueer people still exist, apparently. An assumption is made that other marginalised groups will automatically benefit. That's one hell of an assumption, given that the required changes are for the benefit of black people, and black people only. How much do you support this, would you see justice if your possessions and you future was taken from you at some time in the future, as this suggests, would you support this? The interesting part is how you heard about it. I suspect you have a very interesting news feed from somewhere. Your comment '...would you see justice if your possessions and you future was taken from you at some time in the future...' is yet another remarkable piece of shit-stirring.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 10:17:22 GMT
These words are well worth reading ... helps to focus the mind on the issue ... not the statues. ‘First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride towards freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Klu Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says ‘I agree with you and the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a ‘more convenient season.’ ‘Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.’ Martin Luther King A great quote Rog but I think totally irrelevant to the current situation concerning symbols of the past. That quote was from a movement and a man concerned with achieving justice in the present.
Justice and equality has been steadily improving in this country over the years, ok, not fast enough but still moving on. BLM was triggered (supposedly) by support for actions in the USA.
There might well be a demand for improvements here but the situation in the two countries is not comparable.
Martin Luther King was not concerned with trying to eradicate evidence of past wrongs.
He was concerned with trying to end current wrongs.
A statue of someone who was involved in slaving hundreds of years ago is no more offensive than a statue of Julius Caesar or the Emporer Hadrian ...... removing them has no effect on a current situation but gravely threatens future understanding of what did happen. As I said about the monuments of the concentration camps, things from the past need to be there as evidence.
You need to forget about the statues, its a situation you appear congenitally unable to comprehend.
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Post by JohnV on Jun 11, 2020 10:37:18 GMT
A great quote Rog but I think totally irrelevant to the current situation concerning symbols of the past. That quote was from a movement and a man concerned with achieving justice in the present.
Justice and equality has been steadily improving in this country over the years, ok, not fast enough but still moving on. BLM was triggered (supposedly) by support for actions in the USA.
There might well be a demand for improvements here but the situation in the two countries is not comparable.
Martin Luther King was not concerned with trying to eradicate evidence of past wrongs.
He was concerned with trying to end current wrongs.
A statue of someone who was involved in slaving hundreds of years ago is no more offensive than a statue of Julius Caesar or the Emporer Hadrian ...... removing them has no effect on a current situation but gravely threatens future understanding of what did happen. As I said about the monuments of the concentration camps, things from the past need to be there as evidence.
You need to forget about the statues, its a situation you appear congenitally unable to comprehend. you seem to be congenitally a twat
There are more things going on here than the central aim and lumping them together as the BLM group seem to be doing is simply diverting energy and support from the central issue .... the present
The removal of statues is an irrelevance and a distraction to the fairness of current society.
Have you read the list of those they want erradicated ?
Lord Kitchener because he introduced "concentration camps to Africa" ? what an incredibly well educated group !!!
fancy that !!! apart from the fact that the term had a very different meaning before the Nazis started using it (internment camp is what would be used for an equivalent now although because of Cholera death camp was too close for comfort)
What the hell had that to do with racism ?
Just because a group have a central aim that should be supported doesn't mean that you should ignore any stupidity that is attatched to it
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 11:15:25 GMT
You need to forget about the statues, its a situation you appear congenitally unable to comprehend. you seem to be congenitally a twat
There are more things going on here than the central aim and lumping them together as the BLM group seem to be doing is simply diverting energy and support from the central issue .... the present
The removal of statues is an irrelevance and a distraction to the fairness of current society.
Have you read the list of those they want erradicated ?
Lord Kitchener because he introduced "concentration camps to Africa" ? what an incredibly well educated group !!!
fancy that !!! apart from the fact that the term had a very different meaning before the Nazis started using it (internment camp is what would be used for an equivalent now although because of Cholera death camp was too close for comfort)
What the hell had that to do with racism ?
Just because a group have a central aim that should be supported doesn't mean that you should ignore any stupidity that is attatched to it
No, I wan't aware of that but I would like to meet whomever nominated Kitchener's statue. I doubt it is in any danger, but it appears there is a credible threat to that of Baden-Powell. I liked one of Bodger's suggestions (just for a change) - put them all in a museum. It would be a fantastic way of educating the ignorant about the often-inglorious history of the empire.
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Post by JohnV on Jun 11, 2020 11:21:03 GMT
I thought Kitchener was a classic especially as the incarcerated were white
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 11:41:01 GMT
Going back to removal of statues.
I wonder if this will simply annoy people and increase racial tensions rather than decrease the problem.
It seems toweringly improbable that it can be taken out as it is simply part of human nature.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 12:18:35 GMT
Going back to removal of statues. I wonder if this will simply annoy people and increase racial tensions rather than decrease the problem. It seems toweringly improbable that it can be taken out as it is simply part of human nature. Its sure going to annoy some. The whole thing is riddled with contradictions. I broadly support the demonstrations in that they are a visible expression of genuine feeling. But apart from some re-arrangement of the (street) furniture, I wonder what tangible difference it will all make? It often seems to me that for every protester there are three couldn't-give-a-shit dirtwads whose main concern on any given day is where their next spliff is coming from.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 13:32:09 GMT
Interesting to see in the news that there is a statue being removed -temporarily- to be replaced later on.
Can't remember which one but they are openly saying it is going back so it seems most people are aware this is a temporary letting off of steam not something which is going to fundamentally change human nature.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 13:49:33 GMT
Interesting to see in the news that there is a statue being removed -temporarily- to be replaced later on. Can't remember which one but they are openly saying it is going back so it seems most people are aware this is a temporary letting off of steam not something which is going to fundamentally change human nature. Or no intention of it going back but don't want counter demonstrations... Counter demonstrations are feared this weekend as they set up the ideal circumstances for trouble/violence - hopefully both can go ahead and I understand much effort is going into trying to keep the opposing sides apart.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 11, 2020 14:11:05 GMT
No, it's about a minority group trying to take over a majority group and change the world order. This is interesting: uk.gofundme.com/f/ukblm-fund?fbclid=IwAR3fWIH2EfG-b39q02uxCK14wX9zn2DfuHo6ybx4CyN1xXj6QwGNaV7JhScQueer people still exist, apparently. An assumption is made that other marginalised groups will automatically benefit. That's one hell of an assumption, given that the required changes are for the benefit of black people, and black people only. How much do you support this, would you see justice if your possessions and you future was taken from you at some time in the future, as this suggests, would you support this? The interesting part is how you heard about it. I suspect you have a very interesting news feed from somewhere. Your comment '...would you see justice if your possessions and you future was taken from you at some time in the future...' is yet another remarkable piece of shit-stirring. It didn't take a long time to find it, once I started looking. I was looking, generally, for signs of organisation around this movement, and it popped up. Ending capitalism will indeed see people lose their possessions and their pensions, it's not shit stirring. Possessions and pensions come about through capitalism. An alternative might be able to provide housing and affordable food for all, but that will be about it.
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Post by naughtyfox on Jun 11, 2020 18:48:43 GMT
Talking of Baden-Powell, I read what he did in this book: In a nutshell, Mafeking was under siege and he sent the black population of the town out into the desert to starve, rather than the white people, when it was clear something had to give when food was running low. "his prestige has been weakened by a battery of books which accuse him of saving the white garrison only by imposing a racist "leave or starve" policy on its black members, causing hundreds of deaths. One South African historian, Pat Hopkins, said last year: "This can only be described as a crime against humanity for which he deserves to be reappraised as a war criminal." " www.theguardian.com/uk/2000/may/16/historybooks.books (However, in mitigation, he would probably have preferred not to have been in that position to have had to make such a choice, but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?) In the beginning, Britain wasn't at all interested in being dragged into any kind of conflict in South Africa and the Second Boer War 1899-1902 would not have happened, but the Governor Alfred Milnor whipped up a frenzy about nothing*, and with the Boers, 'simple farmers', humiliating the British Army over and over again. things escalated with Kitchener finally coming along and capturing the Boer fighters' wives and children and starving them to death in his awfully nice not-concentration-camps.** *a co-incidence, surely, that much gold and diamonds had just been discovered in the Boer lands of South Africa! **Kitchener was set against medical personnel travelling from Britain to the internment camps (sounds a bit like Butlins, eh?) because he was a sadist and enjoyed seeing them die. Read the book.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 11, 2020 19:03:32 GMT
Interesting to see in the news that there is a statue being removed -temporarily- to be replaced later on. Can't remember which one but they are openly saying it is going back so it seems most people are aware this is a temporary letting off of steam not something which is going to fundamentally change human nature. This one maybe? A figure of a black man's head has been removed from a pub sign amid a row over racism. Derbyshire Dales District Council said on Monday the 18th Century iron and wood feature in Ashbourne would be "removed with immediate effect". About 150 residents gathered to take down the figure, vowing to return it, before the council could act. Resident Darren Waring, who said he was involved in taking down the feature, said: "People are making these racist overtures without knowing the facts." He said the figure is a head of a Turkish man who came to Ashbourne hundreds of years ago and traded coffee. "He brought prosperity. He was a well-respected and well-loved Turkish man so in his honour they put his head up. It has nothing to do with slavery," he said.
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Post by naughtyfox on Jun 11, 2020 19:26:22 GMT
"This is all part of the program to destroy all of our sense of national, cultural and spiritual identity. The weird thing about it is that people think they are reaffirming those traits when they're actually contributing to their destruction and desecration." You are Number Six. "More importantly, what are we going to do with the thousands of descendants of those who profited from slaves? Is there a museum we can put everyone in or should they be thrown into Bristol harbour?"
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 20:12:32 GMT
This poll would have been much better if the voters names were public
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