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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 21:27:16 GMT
are you still going to try and defy the will of the people? So you think this government should overide the will of the people and therefore democracy in this country? Move on Emma, the people have had their say. PS Are you sure you're not another of Dan's runners trying to fuck up this forum?
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Post by Delta9 on Oct 18, 2016 21:31:22 GMT
'The people' are pretty much split down the middle.
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Post by JohnV on Oct 18, 2016 21:47:16 GMT
'The people' are pretty much split down the middle. Sure but that is often the way with a democracy, if there can be only one of two routes chosen then the majority get their way. There can only be compromises where the answer is not a straight "to go or not to go" There is no "well it's only a small majority so we don't have to listen" If that happens it is no longer a democracy and in that case expect the tumbrils to start rolling
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Post by Delta9 on Oct 18, 2016 21:56:57 GMT
'The people' are pretty much split down the middle. Sure but that is often the way with a democracy, if there can be only one of two routes chosen then the majority get their way. There can only be compromises where the answer is not a straight "to go or not to go" There is no "well it's only a small majority so we don't have to listen" If that happens it is no longer a democracy and in that case expect the tumbrils to start rolling You are talking about direct democracy. Britain doesn't do that and never has.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 21:58:07 GMT
'The people' are pretty much split down the middle. It was close, I'll give you that. However the Brexit vote was one of the biggest we've had in this country. The Tories got in with a much smaller vote so I don't get the logic I'm afraid. Also, how sympathetic would the remainers be to the Brexiters if the vote went the other way by the same amount? When I have asked anyone if they trust those who run the EU, the answer I always get is a resounding 'NO'. So why on earth should we stay in and allow ourselves to be controlled by people we don't trust? As I've said before (I know....yawn), if we ever get to a utopian point in this world where we can trust those in control then fine. We can't even trust everyone in local councils, never mind the EU.
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Post by JohnV on Oct 18, 2016 22:03:04 GMT
Sure but that is often the way with a democracy, if there can be only one of two routes chosen then the majority get their way. There can only be compromises where the answer is not a straight "to go or not to go" There is no "well it's only a small majority so we don't have to listen" If that happens it is no longer a democracy and in that case expect the tumbrils to start rolling You are talking about direct democracy. Britain doesn't do that and never has. A referendum is as close as it is possible to get to direct democracy and it was split three ways in/out/shake it all about. the outs had it by a majority, small maybe but still a majority
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Post by Delta9 on Oct 18, 2016 22:08:18 GMT
'The people' are pretty much split down the middle. It was close, I'll give you that. However the Brexit vote was one of the biggest we've had in this country. The Tories got in with a much smaller vote so I don't get the logic I'm afraid. Also, how sympathetic would the remainers be to the Brexiters if the vote went the other way by the same amount? When I have asked anyone if they trust those who run the EU, the answer I always get is a resounding 'NO'. So why on earth should we stay in and allow ourselves to be controlled by people we don't trust? As I've said before (I know....yawn), if we ever get to a utopian point in this world where we can trust those in control then fine. We can't even trust everyone in local councils, never mind the EU. As I've said from the start, there should never have been a referendum. Direct democracy is shit and doesn't work. Now that we've done it we are pretty much fucked whatever happens. There is no longer any good solution to the problem, we just have to concentrate on damage limitation at this point.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 22:21:21 GMT
It was close, I'll give you that. However the Brexit vote was one of the biggest we've had in this country. The Tories got in with a much smaller vote so I don't get the logic I'm afraid. Also, how sympathetic would the remainers be to the Brexiters if the vote went the other way by the same amount? When I have asked anyone if they trust those who run the EU, the answer I always get is a resounding 'NO'. So why on earth should we stay in and allow ourselves to be controlled by people we don't trust? As I've said before (I know....yawn), if we ever get to a utopian point in this world where we can trust those in control then fine. We can't even trust everyone in local councils, never mind the EU. As I've said from the start, there should never have been a referendum. Direct democracy is shit and doesn't work. Now that we've done it we are pretty much fucked whatever happens. There is no longer any good solution to the problem, we just have to concentrate on damage limitation at this point. I think the media are still being used to paint a bleaker picture than it really is. Especially in Scotland! It will be fine once we squeeze the puss out. We've been through much worse as a country. Time to be positive and move forward now. It's not just about intelligence, it's about seeing the body language, lies and spin then trying to do the right thing about it.
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Post by peterboat on Oct 18, 2016 22:21:39 GMT
That wont work Delta really, as people want a control on immigration and want to move away from the EU or the ones I know want that. I havent talked to anyone who as changed his mind and most just want out now!! The soft option is the worst of all deals as we will get rogered by the EU as punishment for nearly destroying their gravytrain, they will cripple us on the payments system
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Post by Delta9 on Oct 18, 2016 22:32:12 GMT
I think the media are still being used to paint a bleaker picture than it really is. Especially in Scotland! I think the opposite. The media are keeping quiet just how bad things are. A lot of people are in for a shock quite soon.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2016 22:45:23 GMT
I think the media are still being used to paint a bleaker picture than it really is. Especially in Scotland! I think the opposite. The media are keeping quiet just how bad things are. A lot of people are in for a shock quite soon. What sort of people and sectors do you believe will get a shock Delta? I accept things might get a bit worse before they improve.
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Post by Higgs on Oct 19, 2016 4:16:15 GMT
Democracy cannot work in an EU. Each member state is being bound by EU administration. In much the same way as the public elect a few to administer the democratic prerogative in this country, an EU administration presents the member countries with its control.
The people in each country elect their government to power and these governments then administer within the constraints of the EU laws. The public of this country may as well be voting on a manager who ultimately answers to head office, instead of having control over their own national administration. If people are dissatisfied with their own 'local administration', they could complain and try or vote to have an alternative 'local administration' put in place to answer their needs, but this administration would ultimately have to answer to another authority. And, as managers do, they will fall back on the position of being unable to act directly without consultation of the higher authority. In this instance, the EU.
Rather than having a sense of empowerment and participation, there is a definite sense of disempowerment and control being exercised beyond ones ability to effect it. This is not good enough.
I'm not interested in being dragged along in abeyance to business, and the EU is primarily a trading block, but in the relationship that people have to their immediate parliamentary democracy.
This is what the EU says about cartels.
"Instead of competing with each other, cartel members rely on each others' agreed course of action, which reduces their incentives to provide new or better products and services at competitive prices. As a consequence, their clients (consumers or other businesses) end up paying more for less quality."
In the case of the EU, it is democracy; the quality of which is threatened. The challenge in court is one facet that follows that trend.
The effect of parliament contesting a democratic vote by people they purport to represent would be a total farce and an hypocrisy.
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Post by emma on Oct 19, 2016 5:28:15 GMT
I think the opposite. The media are keeping quiet just how bad things are. A lot of people are in for a shock quite soon. What sort of people and sectors do you believe will get a shock Delta? I accept things might get a bit worse before they improve. Shall we talk about Kevin ( sorry, i mean Ireland)? are you old enough to remember what a mess that was 40 years ago? "And when Britain and Ireland joined the EU together in 1973, it brought extensive economic benefits for both, and closer political engagement than previously thought imaginable. The 30-year quasi-civil war in the north was eventually ended by the Good Friday agreement in 1998. The Dublin-London air route is now the busiest in Europe, and even throughout “the Troubles”, free movement of people was never restricted." So you'd like to see all that undone? Or another 'special case' Let's face it your Brexit of fear and lies is falling apart day on day and just ain't gonna happen.
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Post by emma on Oct 19, 2016 5:29:58 GMT
I think the media are still being used to paint a bleaker picture than it really is. Especially in Scotland! I think the opposite. The media are keeping quiet just how bad things are. A lot of people are in for a shock quite soon. Some of the media. There's some out there that are truly watching and analysing and the rest who are trying to shore up the campaign of xenophobic lies.
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Post by emma on Oct 19, 2016 5:35:51 GMT
'The people' are pretty much split down the middle. It was close, I'll give you that. However the Brexit vote was one of the biggest we've had in this country. The Tories got in with a much smaller vote so I don't get the logic I'm afraid. Also, how sympathetic would the remainers be to the Brexiters if the vote went the other way by the same amount? When I have asked anyone if they trust those who run the EU, the answer I always get is a resounding 'NO'. So why on earth should we stay in and allow ourselves to be controlled by people we don't trust? As I've said before (I know....yawn), if we ever get to a utopian point in this world where we can trust those in control then fine. We can't even trust everyone in local councils, never mind the EU. it wasn't 'close' it was effectively 50/50. it raises a whole bunch of issues that need to addressed and stuff that needs changing but it so isn't a mandate for such massive constitutional change. Even the possibility that it is is wreaking enormous damage. You can hold your pint up in the pub and wax large about pakis and poles but the rest of us live in the real world and don't want to live on a failing, isolated little Island where decline is slow and inevitable. I am still waiting for someone to come up with just one benefit of this mess. Rather than just sneer and stick to your Faragian mantras, tell me how this brave new Jerusalem is going to work.
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