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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:11:49 GMT
As people have mentioned there is no shear bolts on the TW rudder design under the water. I guess you’ve just popped the rudder out of the cup on the skeg and you just need to loosen the bearing, re-seat it and re-tighten the bearing. Hopefully that’s all it is and you have not damaged the Skeg or bent the stock. Good luck. I managed to do this on two occasions in the early days of owning our boat. On the first occasion I got into the water and lifted the rudder back in the cup from below. I then discovered it could be done from above in a matter of moments. Luckily, I haven't done it again in recent years. I don't know which bearing you are meaning Starting from the bottom, the rudder sits in an iron channel, there must be a bearing to allow the rudder stock to swivel Then, there must be at least one bracket with bearing which holds the rudder stock firmly in place further up, the stock goes up a tube, there is an oval bearing which I had installed as the stock wiggled about. What you are saying is that this tapered, round stock sits in a cup at the top of the rudder stock, best case scenario is that the tiller stock lifted in the lock due to force, although I am sure the tiller did not catch on the lock, I believe it was the rudder blade which caught, but of course, if the rudder blade was held in place eg by a horizontal beam on the lock gate, and the boat was forced up by the water flowing in to the lock, which it was, a lot of water was coming in, the force of the boat rising lifted boat, including the tiller stock, while the rudder stock stayed where it was.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:14:32 GMT
It's not that because the rudder doesn't move. Good point from @socks about potential of losing the rudder. That would not be ideal. Ok so there must be either a flange or another two-piece arrangement such as a sleeve of some sort and bolts. When the bearing was replaced was the boat in the water? Yes, the boat was in the water, it was not replaced, it was a new bearing not a replacement, as I felt the existing system was primitive, the shaft wiggled about, in fact it is currently wiggling about, but I don't know if that is new or if it was like that last week. This oval bearing is just a collar round the shaft, it's not really doing anything much, it is screwed in to the stern of the boat. I can't get it loose without power tools, but essentially the taper below the ramshead should come up regardless of that new oval bearing. I dont have any big tools to lift the ramshead and tiller taper shaft, I really don't think as its likely some giant weight lifter is going to come along and sort it, I will try with ropes, I have a pulley, but honestly, I'm not hopeful. You mention bolts, where are these bolts, I thought you meant the stock is in two part, the rudder stock has a cup, the tiller stock has a taper and slips in to the cup, though one would think there needs to be bolts or the tiller stock would rotate in the rudder Cup, but how does one access these bolts? Assuming these bolts have sheared?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:23:40 GMT
I managed to do this on two occasions in the early days of owning our boat. On the first occasion I got into the water and lifted the rudder back in the cup from below. I then discovered it could be done from above in a matter of moments. Luckily, I haven't done it again in recent years. I don't know which bearing you are meaning Starting from the bottom, the rudder sits in an iron channel, there must be a bearing to allow the rudder stock to swivel Then, there must be at least one bracket with bearing which holds the rudder stock firmly in place further up, the stock goes up a tube, there is an oval bearing which I had installed as the stock wiggled about. What you are saying is that this tapered, round stock sits in a cup at the top of the rudder stock, best case scenario is that the tiller stock lifted in the lock due to force, although I am sure the tiller did not catch on the lock, I believe it was the rudder blade which caught, but of course, if the rudder blade was held in place eg by a horizontal beam on the lock gate, and the boat was forced up by the water flowing in to the lock, which it was, a lot of water was coming in, the force of the boat rising lifted boat, including the tiller stock, while the rudder stock stayed where it was. I don't want to confuse matters, but this is what ours looks like (Les Allen boatbuilder). The bottom of the rudder lifted out of the lower cup and rested on either the cup or the skeg, although this is unlikely to stop the rudder moving unless the skeg has been bent.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:23:53 GMT
So if it was in the water they must have separated the two parts in order to fit the bearing unless it was a two piece split bearing. Maybe it was. Not.
Something else has broken. Either a flange as suggested or perhaps another way of connecting the two parts.
Maybe in a previous bit of work on the stern gear the rudder post was cut and welded back together and the weld has failed.
That would explain the issue but seems a bit improbable.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:33:45 GMT
You said “There is no bolt on the ramshead, the shear bolt is down at the rudder, ie underwater” As people have mentioned there is no shear bolts on the TW rudder design under the water. I guess you’ve just popped the rudder out of the cup on the skeg and you just need to loosen the bearing, re-seat it and re-tighten the bearing. Hopefully that’s all it is and you have not damaged the Skeg or bent the stock. Good luck. HOW do I loosen the bearing, how do I tighten it, where is this bearing, what went bang? I see the silver photo, the stock goes up throght the boat, yes, does that stock come in one piece, so that when it meets the tlller it is bolted in, so there is no taper dangling from the ramshead. Mine has a round taper from the ramshead, the round taper moves, the rudder stock does not move. Why would the rudder stock be cut in two by design, I have no idea what an elum tube is
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:39:59 GMT
So if it was in the water they must have separated the two parts in order to fit the bearing unless it was a two piece split bearing. Maybe it was. Not. Something else has broken. Either a flange as suggested or perhaps another way of connecting the two parts. Maybe in a previous bit of work on the stern gear the rudder post was cut and welded back together and the weld has failed. That would explain the issue but seems a bit improbable. I can't see that, but who knows what people will do when they decide to DIY a bodge. Other are convinced there is a cup at top of rudder stock, the tiller stock, taper fits in there and is supposed to steer the boat, that alone seems improbable, if things are not welded in place they must be bolted. Surely, the horizontal forces on a vertical taper exerted by a 15 tonne NB must be expected to be large, I often have to use two hands on the tiller when turning.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:53:44 GMT
So if it was in the water they must have separated the two parts in order to fit the bearing unless it was a two piece split bearing. Maybe it was. Not. Something else has broken. Either a flange as suggested or perhaps another way of connecting the two parts. Others suggest nothing has broken but the taper coming out of the ramshead has just popped out, and can be lifted and dropped back on, I don't think it will, I don't think it explains a bang, but it does explain the tiller going round 360 degrees. I will allocate two hours to lifting the ramshead and taper, no more. It cannot be the only thing holding the taper in the flange, there must be something else.
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 21:06:06 GMT
Have a look at the link below, the top pick is the rudder bearing with the rudder stock coming through attached to the Rams head/Swan neck and below the rudder in the rudder cup that’s welded on the skeg, No bolts under the water only above and a one piece assembly as should be on your boat. imgur.com/a/srGbtHS
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 21:09:07 GMT
My original theory was that the taper had come off.
The elum tube is the tube which goes down through the fuel tank and the rudder post/rudder stock is inside this tube.
If this tube is for example 4 inches internal diameter then there is room to lift and drop the rudder assembly downwards. If it is smaller diameter then this is not possible as you would not clear the bearing on the skeg so you would need to have a detachable rudder blade so that the assembly could be lifted out vertically.
Referring to the occasional requirement to get a new propeller shaft in from outside the boat. The rudder will be in the way. Needs moving..some clever boat builders deliberately misalign the shaft slightly but I don't think they all do.
Anyway a flange or other detachable part is another option for this.
If at some point somebody replaced the propeller shaft and found the rudder to be in the way and awkward to move it's not impossible (in my head) that they sliced through the rudder post immediately below the counter, got rudder out the way to get the job done then just welded it back together. The weld depth would not be much and would significantly weaken the whole thing but probably not cause any problems until something unusual happened then there would be a bang. But I would have expected the rudder to fall off at this point so maybe it was put back together with a piece of pipe rather than just welding the bits of bar together.
This could explain
Anyway
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 21:09:20 GMT
It’s the rudder that’s come out of the cup and not the stock out of the Rams head. Have a look at the link below, the top pic is the rudder bearing with the rudder stock coming through attached to the Rams head/Swan neck and below the rudder in the rudder cup that’s welded onto the skeg, No bolts under the water only above and a one piece rudder assembly as should be on your boat. imgur.com/a/srGbtHS
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 21:13:59 GMT
Have a look at the link below, the top pick is the rudder bearing with the rudder stock coming through attached to the Rams head/Swan neck and below the rudder in the rudder cup that’s welded on the skeg, No bolts under the water only above and a one piece assembly as should be on your boat. imgur.com/a/srGbtHSYour image I took the liberty of adding a little orange blob and a little blue blob. From the description @socks has given these two parts are moving together. This is the key point. If they are then it's not the taper.
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 21:25:07 GMT
Have a look at the link below, the top pick is the rudder bearing with the rudder stock coming through attached to the Rams head/Swan neck and below the rudder in the rudder cup that’s welded on the skeg, No bolts under the water only above and a one piece assembly as should be on your boat. imgur.com/a/srGbtHSYour image I took the liberty of adding a little orange blob and a little blue blob. From the description @socks has given these two parts are moving together. This is the key point. If they are then it's not the taper. Yes exactly, she also says the rudder does not move when these do together. So that indicates a snapped stock or the stock has been altered from the original with some form of coupling with a shear bolt, The other picture is a standard TW rudder assy, I have and another member also have never seen a two part rudder assy made by TW.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 21:30:42 GMT
I reckon whoever did the stern gear cut the rudder post in order to get the shaft out when replacing shaft and sterntube.
Subsequently welded back up with a bit of pipe. One of the welds has failed.
That would explain it.
Also slightly intriguing that it originally did not have a top bearing. This seems unlikely as vast majority of boats built reasonably recently (1990?) were fitted with top bearings. Of course these do wear out and the balls drop away so the thing becomes floppy.
A few builders may still do the traditional machined block type of bearing. Norton canes perhaps. Hudson's did look like the old type but they had a ball bearing setup under what appears to be a solid machined block. People don't like rattles.
I'm sure that Tyler Wilson would have fitted bearings .with balls rather than plain types.
My first narrow boat was a 1976 Hancock and Lane which didn't have a top bearing of any description just an extra bit of plate. I wrapped a piece of margarine carton around the rudder post that helped enormously with the rattling.
A properly raked and well weighted rudder won't need to have a ball bearing system anyway. Plain machined block is much better and won't rattle but it does mean the fabricator needs to do more work as it will not be self aligning and the block itself needs machining.
Cheaper to buy a chinese made flange bearing and mount it flat !
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 22:06:33 GMT
I reckon whoever did the stern gear cut the rudder post in order to get the shaft out when replacing shaft and sterntube. Subsequently welded back up with a bit of pipe. One of the welds has failed. That would explain it. Also slightly intriguing that it originally did not have a top bearing. This seems unlikely as vast majority of boats built reasonably recently (1990?) were fitted with top bearings. Of course these do wear out and the balls drop away so the thing becomes floppy. A few builders may still do the traditional machined block type of bearing. Norton canes perhaps. Hudson's did look like the old type but they had a ball bearing setup under what appears to be a solid machined block. People don't like rattles. I'm sure that Tyler Wilson would have fitted bearings .with balls rather than plain types. My first narrow boat was a 1976 Hancock and Lane which didn't have a top bearing of any description just an extra bit of plate. I wrapped a piece of margarine carton around the rudder post that helped enormously with the rattling. A properly raked and well weighted rudder won't need to have a ball bearing system anyway. Plain machined block is much better and won't rattle but it does mean the fabricator needs to do more work as it will not be self aligning and the block itself needs machining. Cheaper to buy a chinese made flange bearing and mount it flat ! I doubt it, as she says they replaced only the top bearing and this was done with the boat in the water. So unlikely they cut the rudder off. What I’m gathering is this is probably a simple in water repair/re-seat of the rudder, having first loosened off the top bearing. “Socks” description of things and a lack of a photo is confusing things and people are lookingo too much into it and over egging the problem.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 22:07:41 GMT
Previously in the thread it was reported that the stern gear had been replaced, unrelated to the top bearing installation.
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