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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 15:10:55 GMT
I asked Thorne Boat builders in 2019 or 2000 to put an oval bearing on, which they did without removing the boat from the water. I asked if the boat had come out, they said no. Its 3 years ago, but presumably they must have got the ramshead off without damaging the apparatus. Ideally, someone will drive up in a white van tomorrow remove the tiller and pop everything back in to place, so at least I can test drive the steering, it could be just something popped out and a big hammer would sort it.
Ive suggested something novel that you could try, thanking TD and asking nicely if he might call. TD wants to drain pound and fix it, which is essentially removing it from water. Read my previous post about this idea. Anyone working on the boat needs to be a qualified engineer, insured, and with a welding capability on hand, plus nuts and bolts, Stilsons etc, ie a workshop. The boat is on a working private single lane road, barred to traffic overnight, I might be able to bow haul it through a few locks, but there are no passing boats to tow me to a marina at the moment. The marina has kindly agreed to provide access for an engineer, a crane, a tow, and welding facility. All I need is clearance,l. If a boat has a potentially serious incident, one has to be sure the repair is signed off by a qualified and insured engineer, its OK to have a quick fix as long as the basic boat build is not damaged, we have not got anyone who will try a quick fix, I don't believe there is one. Please read my previous posts, TD has disparaged the advice of my engineer, RCR, the boatbuilder, and my strategy. If he wants to come and fix the steering in situ, using his standard tools, fine, but its not going to be dried out in a pound.
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Post by cygnus on Nov 15, 2021 15:12:03 GMT
Clears throat, puts tin hat on. If I remember correctly..........
If there is no top stud or side grub screw fitted on the boss like already mentioned then the swan neck prizes off the top of the tapered rudder stock. It is just a gravity/friction fit and just pressed down. To remove, packers under the boss, long lever, and brutality required. If the swan neck is moving independently of the rudder then it is already loose, maybe much brutality not required. Then to get the rudder off, you need a couple of feet of space under the skeg so that you can slide the rudder up out of the cup on the skeg and down, passing the skeg, withdrawing rudder stock from pipe passing through the fuel tank. Remember to undo the top bearing grub screw(s).
The skeg or rudder (or both) might be damaged, who here can say without being there? Best to check out of the water. And relax.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 15, 2021 15:37:58 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 15:47:19 GMT
With two Dunkley’s currently on the forum, I think we can now be sure which is conterfeit 😎, these trolls live under bridges, and are a fuck8ng nuisance.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 15:48:03 GMT
You really are a nasty bit of work Dunkley.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 15:50:56 GMT
No worries I didn't read it, spawn of the devil......
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 16:17:06 GMT
Clears throat, puts tin hat on. If I remember correctly.......... If there is no top stud or side grub screw fitted on the boss like already mentioned then the swan neck prizes off the top of the tapered rudder stock. It is just a gravity/friction fit and just pressed down. To remove, packers under the boss, long lever, and brutality required. If the swan neck is moving independently of the rudder then it is already loose, maybe much brutality not required. Then to get the rudder off, you need a couple of feet of space under the skeg so that you can slide the rudder up out of the cup on the skeg and down, passing the skeg, withdrawing rudder stock from pipe passing through the fuel tank. Remember to undo the top bearing grub screw(s). The skeg or rudder (or both) might be damaged, who here can say without being there? Best to check out of the water. And relax. She says the top piece of the stock above the bearing is moving with the Swan neck, the rudder is not, which sort of indicates the stock is in two parts. Maybe it is a two part stock with some form of cup/flange connecting upper stock to lower stock/rudder with both parts held together by a bolt and it is this bolt what has sheared/snapped, which is why the engineer has mentioned the underwater bolt and the need to get it out of water.
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Post by cygnus on Nov 15, 2021 17:20:44 GMT
Thanks pd1964, but I've not seen that design on Tyler/Wilson boats of that era, and I worked on em for 10 years. They've usually just parted at the swan neck boss. At my age I've learnt that nothing is absolute though. 😉
I've had two boats built by French & Peel and they both had a bolted flange above the rudder blade below water. Pretty standard on commercial barges as TD says. Not so sure on modern narrowboats.
I could see the previous owner of Jo's boat if he's around and ask him if he can help.
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 17:46:34 GMT
Thanks pd1964, but I've not seen that design on Tyler/Wilson boats of that era, and I worked on em for 10 years. They've usually just parted at the swan neck boss. At my age I've learnt that nothing is absolute though. 😉 I've had two boats built by French & Peel and they both had a bolted flange above the rudder blade below water. Pretty standard on commercial barges as TD says. Not so sure on modern narrowboats. I could see the previous owner of Jo's boat if he's around and ask him if he can help. I too have never seen a two part design on their boats all have had a welded rudder to a one piece stock, but she says she has rotation at the top but no movement on the rudder and a sheared bolt under the water, again never seen on a TW rudder assy. It will be interesting to find out the cause of the problem. I think a few are concerned that she may be getting her leg lifted and the problem could be an easy fix without the boat being craned out.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 18:05:50 GMT
Now I didnt say I had seen a sheared bolt underwater, I just decided that if the thing is bolted, and cant be accessed from above, that it's underwater, For all I know the rudder is welded to the stock, which would seem normal. I am in the middle of nowhere, the recommended engineer may not know the exact build, but he wants it out, it won't make any difference to his time, in fact it is bound to cut his time as he can access the rudder and the tiller. He also thinks he might need access to welding, he is not going to do it any other way.
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 18:45:03 GMT
You said “There is no bolt on the ramshead, the shear bolt is down at the rudder, ie underwater” As people have mentioned there is no shear bolts on the TW rudder design under the water. I guess you’ve just popped the rudder out of the cup on the skeg and you just need to loosen the bearing, re-seat it and re-tighten the bearing. Hopefully that’s all it is and you have not damaged the Skeg or bent the stock. Good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 19:05:57 GMT
I'd be inclined to find a friendly strong person and ask them if they would be willing to lift the swan neck/ramshead assembly off the top of the taper.
It sounds like it is just not locked on and being quite a heavy lump of steel it could be lifted a little bit but possibly not very far unless you are really quite strong.
My money is on it being a taper. Lift it up an inch and a half and the whole steering arrangement would come off. But it would be heavy.
Damhikt but I managed not to drop mine in the water! Was surprised how heavy it was to be honest but then it is solid steel and quite a lot of it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 19:45:26 GMT
I'd be inclined to find a friendly strong person and ask them if they would be willing to lift the swan neck/ramshead assembly off the top of the taper. It sounds like it is just not locked on and being quite a heavy lump of steel it could be lifted a little bit but possibly not very far unless you are really quite strong. My money is on it being a taper. Lift it up an inch and a half and the whole steering arrangement would come off. But it would be heavy. Damhikt but I managed not to drop mine in the water! Was surprised how heavy it was to be honest but then it is solid steel and quite a lot of it. I don't agree with your basic thought, it may be a misunderstanding. The tiller moves the taper, but not the rudder, therefore if I lift the tiller at the ramshead, the round taper will lift with it, I know I can lift it 2 inches by hand, easily and tomorrow I intend to try harder, using leverage, but if the taper is, for example 8 inches long, and I get it up 8 inches, that only proves that the rudder stock and the tiller taper are detatched, messing about like that, I might lose the rudder in the canal, which is something no one has mentioned, there is no hole in the rudder tab, essentially, the ramshead and the round taper are fused, it's not a case that the tiller is loose from the rudder stock at the ramshead, the round tillerstock, which should be rammed by force in to the underneath of the ramshead is in place, I can't see a method of removing it with screws, I do know that three years ago a rudder bearing was fitted, at that time the stock must have been lifted, Or the ramshead was removed to allow the collar of the bearing to go over the tiller stock.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 19:48:14 GMT
As people have mentioned there is no shear bolts on the TW rudder design under the water. I guess you’ve just popped the rudder out of the cup on the skeg and you just need to loosen the bearing, re-seat it and re-tighten the bearing. Hopefully that’s all it is and you have not damaged the Skeg or bent the stock. Good luck. I managed to do this on two occasions in the early days of owning our boat. On the first occasion I got into the water and lifted the rudder back in the cup from below. I then discovered it could be done from above in a matter of moments. Luckily, I haven't done it again in recent years.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 20:08:51 GMT
It's not that because the rudder doesn't move.
Good point from @socks about potential of losing the rudder. That would not be ideal.
Ok so there must be either a flange or another two-piece arrangement such as a sleeve of some sort and bolts.
When the bearing was replaced was the boat in the water?
Almost seems like whoever did the bearing did not know how to get the taper separated so cut the rudder post off just below the counter then put it back together with a piece of tube and a couple of bolts.
Or it is flanged which is what Tony said but that would not allow the bearing to be done without separating the rams head from the rudder post.
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