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Post by Telemachus on Nov 19, 2021 11:21:35 GMT
Maybe, but I would have thought a taper made to “boat engineering tolerances” (not particularly intimate and constant contact between the two mating surfaces) wouldn’t be a reliable and permanent connection. And it certainly makes it difficult to separate for future repairs. The proper way was a square taper joint above the rudder. The Tyler shells have the rams head all welded, I did wonder when these first appeared as to how the bearings would be changed. Dad and I used to deliver some of the new shells but never looked as to how the rudders were mounted. Our Hudson has a round taper with a bolt holding it together. The tiller forces on a Hudson are quite high (big rudder with not much blade in front of the pivot) but we have had no issue with it slipping. Unlike our friends’ boat who, on their first outing having picked their new boat up, suddenly found the tiller disconnected from the rudder. Turns out Steve had forgotten to tighten the bolt. Ooops!
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 19, 2021 11:29:00 GMT
Are you lot working on CV's for a job application with RCR ?
Dropping off and refitting a narrowboat rudder with the boat afloat really is no big deal, and you're all making it sound like some sort of major operation.
Back in the days of commercial carrying (pre 1970 when the last two long distance jobs from the Warwickshire coalfields to the North London area finished) apart from instances of damaged, usually bent, rudder stocks (ellum poles), it was frequently necessary to drop the rudders (ellums) off working boats (motors) to replace worn out splash washers.
It was the sort of job that we would do in the stop lock at Sutton's for the price of a few drinks whilst waiting for the pub to open on a Sunday morning.
Now then, . . who's going to be the first to ask what a 'splash washer' is ?
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Post by JohnV on Nov 19, 2021 12:37:16 GMT
Me !!!
My background is boating but not canal boating and in particular not narrow boating. A lot of the terminology for parts of a working narrowboat are unique to the breed and are almost always known as something else in other places. The years I narrowboated and lived on one were limited and in that time there was never a problem with the steering that required me to examine it in detail. (from memory it was a crude system which is not surprising as it was converted from a joey at Springers ..... and let's face it they had some ..... interesting variations.
So no, I do not know what a splash washer is although I might guess
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 19, 2021 12:50:09 GMT
I'd guess its a washer below the counter to help stop water pissing up through the tube and wetting the driver's feet, especially at high power.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 19, 2021 12:51:12 GMT
To get emergency steering it might be an idea to lash a wide scaffold type board or even boarding plank to the swan neck angled diagonally downwards. Joe, . . there's absolutely NO NEED to move the boat from where it is, . . only a few hundred yards away from a very short pound, . . so there's no need to be messing about trying to rig up some temporary means of steering. _________________________________________________________________________ The task of fixing the broken rudder and stock couldn't be more straightforward and easy : -- * Take broken/damaged rudder and stock assembly and ramshead off the boat in the nearby short pound, . . inspecting counter bottom plating, rudder stock tube, skeg, propeller and tailshaft for possible damage at the same time. * Take broken/damaged rudder and stock assembly and ramshead to a welder/fabricator. * Instruct them to separate the ramshead from the upper piece of the scrap stock, and cut the rudder blade and balance off the other part of the scrap stock. * Obtain suitable length of bright round bar for new stock. * Adapt/machine one end of new stock to fit the existing ramshead, complete with retaining bolt and plate washer. * Weld original rudder blade and balance back onto new stock. * Return new rudder & stock assembly, and ramshead to boat, and re-fit it in the same short pound that it was all taken off in. --- Job done, . . no expensive RCR nonsense and palaver, no towing, docking or craneage . . and all, done at minimal cost. Which, if the owner is lucky, MIGHT just persuade her insurers to overlook the fact that the (inherently defective) rudder stock broke instead of bending, and meet at least some proportion of the final total value of the claim she's putting in, . . in which she MUST cite, and emphasise, the high probability that a serviceable and sound rudder stock would have bent if subjected to the same treatment and conditions that the old one broke under, . . and would therefore have still resulted in a broadly similar claim. _____________________________________________________________________________ As you obviously either are, or have been, in communication with the daft old bat, . . perhaps you wouldn't mind passing all of the above on to her, . . with my compliments !
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Post by cygnus on Nov 19, 2021 14:00:04 GMT
Tony please understand that Jo has made her own mind up about how she wants to proceed. She has switched off, she isn't listening. Can't we just accept she is going her own way with this right or wrong? I am not disagreeing with the way you would do it, you do make sense, you are right, but I'm not Jo.
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Post by peterboat on Nov 19, 2021 14:11:43 GMT
Tony Interesting about removing the rudder and stock while still in the water, presumable there is either enough play in the top bearing to allow sufficient sideways movement for the it to miss the skeg when lowering or the bearing is removable from the top to allow the angle. I can see how the removal can be done simply enough but I imagine lining it up when replacing it must be a total PITA. I gather from the description there is a threaded hole in the tip of the stock, do you use that to attach a guide rope (running down through the stock tunnel)to pull the end of the shaft into place ? Older boats had plain bearings at the top which lift off once the ramshead is removed. So with ramshead off you would first tie a retrieval rope to the rudder blade then due to the large diameter of the elum tube the rudder can be lifted off the bottom bearing and dropped to the side and downwards. I guess to get it back you would want to bolt a small length of chain with rope attached to the centre bolt at the top, manipulate the chain/rope up the elum tube then lift the rudder up from the stern deck. I can see it as being manageable but not that easy. Also in this case as there is a break somewhere you would need to secure both parts and apparently this rudder has not got a hole in it so some other way of retrieving it would be needed. Mine is a 2008 Johnathon Wilson boat it has a hole in the rudder and is the same design as Socks I have never seen one of Jonnys boat without the hole because he knows what its for! I wonder if more was done on Socks rudder than is maybe known?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2021 15:36:17 GMT
It seems likely.
As for applying for a job with RCR I doubt they employ indolent upper class yobs.
I'm quite pleased that this thread has resulted in some of Tony's vast knowledge ending up written down.
One must play the idiot more regularly to glean more of this bejewelled information.
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Post by Jim on Nov 19, 2021 15:37:57 GMT
Are you lot working on CV's for a job application with RCR ? Dropping off and refitting a narrowboat rudder with the boat afloat really is no big deal, and you're all making it sound like some sort of major operation. Back in the days of commercial carrying (pre 1970 when the last two long distance jobs from the Warwickshire coalfields to the North London area finished) apart from instances of damaged, usually bent, rudder stocks (ellum poles), it was frequently necessary to drop the rudders (ellums) off working boats (motors) to replace worn out splash washers. It was the sort of job that we would do in the stop lock at Sutton's for the price of a few drinks whilst waiting for the pub to open on a Sunday morning. Now then, . . who's going to be the first to ask what a 'splash washer' is ? To remove the elderly male drippage stains off one's trousers?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2021 21:09:29 GMT
[... Return new rudder & stock assembly, and ramshead to boat, and re-fit it in the same short pound that it was all taken off in. --- Job done, . . ! A deep pound then is it ?
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 19, 2021 21:52:08 GMT
[... Return new rudder & stock assembly, and ramshead to boat, and re-fit it in the same short pound that it was all taken off in. --- Job done, . . ! A deep pound then is it ? Second to the third lock down, . . not especially, . . as far as I can remember, . . and what's that got to do with the price of fish ?
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 19, 2021 22:31:24 GMT
All of which reminds me of an epic helicopter trip which I did in 1983 - Borneo to Gatwick (a mere 10 days flying in a Puma). Landing at Karachi we got a flat nosewheel tyre. It’s a twin nosewheel so not that catastrophic. But we needed rolling takeoffs (overweight and VERY hot) so it had to be fixed. We had a spare nosewheel and an engineer in the back (as you do). I suggested we just change it in the hover but Captain was having none of it and “don’t be stupid Norman!” Yes we had health and safety even in 1983!
Contacted the local engineering guys at PIA who said they would come with jacks. So we waited. It was hot. As in 35C. We waited more. It was even hotter. As in 40C. Eventually after about 3 hours captain said “I tell you what, why don’t we change the nosewheel in the hover. Good idea, says I (!!!)
So captain hovers it and me and engineer manage to get under the helicopter (which is quite difficult when it’s pushing down 8tonnes of air to stay off the ground) and put the new nosewheel on. All done and dusted … at which point the PIA engineers arrived. I think they had been watching from afar!
Anyway the moral being that one can do these things in extremis (eg replacing a rudder afloat) if REALLY ESSENTIAL but it is much preferable to take the easy and safe route by giving the task to someone else to do in the comfort of a dry dock / ashore.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 20, 2021 8:21:15 GMT
. . . . . . . . . . . . Anyway the moral being that one can do these things in extremis (eg replacing a rudder afloat) if REALLY ESSENTIAL but it is much preferable to take the easy and safe route by giving the task to someone else to do in the comfort of a dry dock / ashore.Still missing the point, I see, . . and doing your best to perpetuate the idiotic notion that anyone was suggesting that the owner should tackle the job herself. Remember this from a post of yours on page 4 ? --- "However I think you are failing to take into account the nature of the OP and I suspect she is neither physically nor psychologically capable of doing it herself."As for the nonsense about "giving the task to someone else to do in the comfort of a dry dock / ashore.", . . boat repairs aren't about doing the job "in comfort", . . particularly in an instance such as this when the difference in cost between completing repairs where the boat was when the damage occurred or doing it "in comfort", is the cost of a crane for a one-off lift out and then when repairs are completed, the same cost again for a crane for a lift back in. In my (professional) opinion the extra, completely unnecessary, cost of two half days crane hire, plus what the yard/marina will charge on top of that, will be the factor that will make the difference between the insurers paying out for the structural repairs to the rudder, or refusing to cover the cost of the lift out and back in again whilst agreeing to meet the cost the structural repairs to the rudder.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 20, 2021 8:53:56 GMT
If the Engineer in question (Wayne.) is the guy who I think it is, he worked for Ian Clark of Pennine cruisers in skipton for years and he knows what he’s doing. Whoever it was who went out to Barrowford last Friday, . . it's quite apparent that they were pretty clueless ! Anyone who -- "knows what he's doing" -- would have got the knackered rudder and stock assembly, together with the ramshead, off the boat and taken it somewhere for either repair or reconstructing with a new stock -- a day's work at most for any competent welder/fabricator. Once repaired, the rudder could have been refitted at Barrowford, and the boat back in commission and on its way by now.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 9:09:01 GMT
I suppose one could use a clamp on the rudder blade or somehow work a rope around it.
Previous report that there is no hole and also report that the shell fabricator always had a hole seems to indicate the possibility of a can of worms situation.
Getting it off while in water -might- not be quite as straightforward as it may appear.
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