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Post by ianali on Aug 8, 2022 10:56:36 GMT
It's a difficult choice ... the multi-millionaire and self serving Boris, or the multi-millionaire and self serving Sir Keir Starmer. And now all change as the incredibly wealthy Truss and Sunak jostle for position. Does anyone really believe it's going to make any difference ? If the pandemic taught anything, it was that problems can be resolved and money found to do so, IF and ONLY IF there is a political will to do so. The status quo only serves those who have ... for clarity that's politicians ... all of them. Rog I am not sure their personal wealth has anything to do with it. Or in fact yes perhaps it does have something to do with it, at least in the case of those people who are wealthy as a result of their own competence and hard work (as opposed to inheriting it). Surely the country is better run by people with a track record of managing themselves well, rather that someone who is not wealthy because they made the wrong choices in their own lives? Do you think Boris has managed himself well?
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 8, 2022 11:04:07 GMT
I am not sure their personal wealth has anything to do with it. Or in fact yes perhaps it does have something to do with it, at least in the case of those people who are wealthy as a result of their own competence and hard work (as opposed to inheriting it). Surely the country is better run by people with a track record of managing themselves well, rather that someone who is not wealthy because they made the wrong choices in their own lives? Do you think Boris has managed himself well? No. But he is not one of the prospective new PMs. Clearly he got where he is mostly due to inheritance, not from his own hard and competent work. BUT he did have enough charisma to fool much of the electorate. That has to count for something! All the good ideas but dull as ditchwater is no good. All the charisma but no morality is a bad idea. As Buddha say, middle path best.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 11:28:36 GMT
Please elaborate on this point. wobbly
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Post by JohnV on Aug 8, 2022 11:36:25 GMT
Do you think Boris has managed himself well? No. But he is not one of the prospective new PMs. Clearly he got where he is mostly due to inheritance, not from his own hard and competent work. BUT he did have enough charisma to fool much of the electorate. That has to count for something! All the good ideas but dull as ditchwater is no good. All the charisma but no morality is a bad idea. As Buddha say, middle path best. got to go along with that
Originally Boris was the best of a bad lot
some things under his PM ship were done quite well especially when compared to other nations however ....... in other fields it seemed he could also be a blithering idiot
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 12:09:10 GMT
Not any more, Johnson sacked all the "good" Tory MPs so only the sycophants were left. So the Tory party has no "good" MPs. I rest my case any MP is better than a Tory MP Johnson did not sack any Tory MPs, that is beyond the ability of any Prime Minister. The only people who can "sack" an MP are the voters in their constituancy. On fairly rare occasions the "whip" may be withdrawn which can prevent that MP from effectively being a member of that particular political party. but that does not mean they are no longer an MP with the right to speak and vote in parliament
The Prime Minister may load his "cabinet" with sycophants but the next leader can just as easily bring them back if he so wishes. You seem to have a strange view on what powers a PM actually has
He removed the whip from them and called a GE as they were no longer Tory candidates they did t get back in. Might as well just sack them it's the same result
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Post by JohnV on Aug 8, 2022 13:29:30 GMT
Johnson did not sack any Tory MPs, that is beyond the ability of any Prime Minister. The only people who can "sack" an MP are the voters in their constituancy. On fairly rare occasions the "whip" may be withdrawn which can prevent that MP from effectively being a member of that particular political party. but that does not mean they are no longer an MP with the right to speak and vote in parliament
The Prime Minister may load his "cabinet" with sycophants but the next leader can just as easily bring them back if he so wishes. You seem to have a strange view on what powers a PM actually has
He removed the whip from them and called a GE as they were no longer Tory candidates they did t get back in. Might as well just sack them it's the same result without going back and checking, I think about half decided not to stand again. and again from memory some were re elected and some who changed parties/went independent and lost.
again without research I can't be certain but ....
I seem to remember at the time some politicians who voted in the opposite direction from the way their constituancy voted in the referendum were punished by their electorate
as I say without digging a lot I can't be certain but I'm sure that things were way more complex than you infer.
On top of that, there were a lot of constituancies who proceeded to vote in a totally unexpected direction because of the unwillingnes of the sitting MPs to follow the wishes of their constituants.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 14:08:18 GMT
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Post by IainS on Aug 8, 2022 15:07:45 GMT
Not any more, Johnson sacked all the "good" Tory MPs so only the sycophants were left. So the Tory party has no "good" MPs. I rest my case any MP is better than a Tory MP Johnson did not sack any Tory MPs, that is beyond the ability of any Prime Minister.
The only people who can "sack" an MP are the voters in their constituancy.
On fairly rare occasions the "whip" may be withdrawn which can prevent that MP from effectively being a member of that particular political party.
but that does not mean they are no longer an MP with the right to speak and vote in parliament
The Prime Minister may load his "cabinet" with sycophants but the next leader can just as easily bring them back if he so wishes.
You seem to have a strange view on what powers a PM actually has
But if a general election is called while the whip is withdrawn ...
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Post by JohnV on Aug 8, 2022 16:40:06 GMT
the voting statistics on the last GE and the referendum make interesting reading and really show the complexities (and problems) of first past the post.
The percentage of remain votes and the percentage of conservative votes, as a percentage were almost identical.
The problem for Mr Gauke was that he only swung about 8.4% conservative voters to his side but walloped labour by taking nearly 14% of their vote.
judging by that it would seem that his core voters did not agree with him.
The whole thing is extremely complex and trying to distil it down to a single thing, as you seem to want to, is frankly both impossible and silly.
A overall view showing some of the complexities is fairly clearly shown in this and if you are truly interested, it's worth a view
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Post by naughtyfox on Aug 8, 2022 18:25:47 GMT
"I don't blame the government, that's just what governments do unfortunately. I do blame the UK's population, for rolling over, talking the money and hiding like sheep for two years."
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Post by JohnV on Aug 8, 2022 18:32:50 GMT
"I don't blame the government, that's just what governments do unfortunately. I do blame the UK's population, for rolling over, talking the money and hiding like sheep for two years." tps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhclJiiz4aM why do you keep posting links to this person ....... just look at his eyes !!!
It's quite plain to see that he is an alien lifeform, possibly even a lizzard person in disguise
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Post by naughtyfox on Aug 8, 2022 18:36:38 GMT
Because he has a good message.
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Post by JohnV on Aug 8, 2022 18:46:15 GMT
Because he has a good message. it was a joke Ross
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2022 18:50:14 GMT
It's a difficult choice ... the multi-millionaire and self serving Boris, or the multi-millionaire and self serving Sir Keir Starmer. And now all change as the incredibly wealthy Truss and Sunak jostle for position. Does anyone really believe it's going to make any difference ? If the pandemic taught anything, it was that problems can be resolved and money found to do so, IF and ONLY IF there is a political will to do so. The status quo only serves those who have ... for clarity that's politicians ... all of them. Rog I am not sure their personal wealth has anything to do with it. Or in fact yes perhaps it does have something to do with it, at least in the case of those people who are wealthy as a result of their own competence and hard work (as opposed to inheriting it). Surely the country is better run by people with a track record of managing themselves well, rather that someone who is not wealthy because they made the wrong choices in their own lives? I think perhaps the country would be better run by someone who has a genuine drive , passion and ambition to improve the lot of the less fortunate in society. That seems to exclude career politicians. Rog
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 8, 2022 21:18:16 GMT
I am not sure their personal wealth has anything to do with it. Or in fact yes perhaps it does have something to do with it, at least in the case of those people who are wealthy as a result of their own competence and hard work (as opposed to inheriting it). Surely the country is better run by people with a track record of managing themselves well, rather that someone who is not wealthy because they made the wrong choices in their own lives? I think perhaps the country would be better run by someone who has a genuine drive , passion and ambition to improve the lot of the less fortunate in society. That seems to exclude career politicians. Rog No I disagree, good intentions alone are not good enough. There is no magic money tree to dole out to those less fortunate. You want to take money from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. So now there is no point in making lots of money, we’ll all just doss around doing the minimum. Or emigrate to a country that shows less resentment to people who have done well in life. Now where is the money for the less fortunate? So you need a much more intelligent strategy, and that requires a lot more than just good intentions.
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