|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 18, 2024 11:16:50 GMT
I think it appropriate to separate this subject from the Winter CC in the NW thread. Much confused, uninformed and unhelpful content has been heaped on top of what was already a rather confused subject in the Winter CC in the NW thread -- not least of all, in the general lack of clarity as to what the Ribble Link actually is, . . and precisely where it begins and ends. It will, no doubt, come as a surprise to some that it does NOT begin or end - depending on the direction of travel - at Tarleton Lock, on the Leeds & Liverpool's Rufford Arm. It begins, or ends - depending on the direction of travel - at a Half-tide Barrier, approximately half a mile downstream of the A583 Blackpool Road Bridge, in what is known locally as Savick Brook -- a land drainage watercourse, with its outfall into the tidal River Ribble, that was widened and deepened sufficiently to allow the passage of small pleasure craft, 'canalised' by means of locks, and opened to pleasure craft traffic in July 2002. The other end of the Ribble Link - approximately 4 miles from the half-tide barrier/gate is the canal basin, off the Lancaster Canal, on the outskirts of the town of the Lancashire town of Preston. There are many questions to be answered with regard to how - to give it its full title - the Millenium Ribble Link is operated, maintained and financed. Is it feasible to increase the numbers of pleasure craft using it, for instance, and why is there a nonsensical obligatory one-way only working regime imposed on what is, when all's said and done, simply a 4 mile long, non-tidal, small scale canalised river navigation ? Why does the Canal & River Trust [C&RT] - the navigation/competent harbour authority for the Ribble Link - impose such an amateurish, ill-conceived tidal passage planning/scheduling regime between Tarleton Lock, where the Leeds & Liverpool's Rufford Arm meets and joins the tidal River Douglas, and the half-tide gate/barrier, situated close to the A583 road bridge over the Savick Brook, . .where the navigation - the Ribble Link - becomes semi-tidal for approximately half a mile before becoming non-tidal at Lock No.8 for the remaining three and a half miles to the canal basin where it joins the Lancaster Canal ? Why does the C&RT persist with outdated and unnecessarily costly annual maintenance dredging methods on the Ribble Link in preference to adopting the much less costly, and more operationally practical and effective, plough dredging methods used nowadays by other harbour authorities and port operators to maintain berths and navigation channels at the required least depths ? < thunderboat.boards.net/post/395808/thread > I'm moving the above linked to post over to this thread, . . which specifically covers the subject of the Ribble Link, and the amateurish crap job that C&RT make of operating and maintaining it.
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 18, 2024 12:45:57 GMT
Apr 18, 2024 11:51:25 GMT 1 Telemachus said:
Well I for one would be interested to hear your proposal. Presumably it involves sitting out low water in the Ribble estuary. I have no idea whether there is sufficient depth to do that (probably depends on the type of tide) but surely, even though there would be less fuel consumed, it would take longer bobbing about waiting for the tide to come in?
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Not a proposal, . . but a variation on what we used to do running light back to Preston Docks from Tarleton back in the early 1960's on the trial runs for the prospective bagged chemicals traffic for ICI at Anderton.
Back then, we would pen out of Tarleton about an hour after half Ebb, then a very steady run down the Douglas (the 'Asland', as some of the older local ex-boatmen called it) to the river's end, hang around for an hour or so in the vicinity of Five Mile Perch/Astland Light, then run up to Preston Docks on the first of the Flood.
Now, with only pleasure craft going up to Preston from Tarleton, it would be more convenient, and make an overnight wait for the next Flood posible, if so desired, . . to wait on the floating landing stages at the boatyard that's about a mile downriver from Tarleton. It must be around two years now since I spoke with the boatyard about doing this. They were quite happy about making such an arrangement, . . and appeared somewhat surprised that nobody had asked about it before.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 13:43:14 GMT
Apr 18, 2024 11:51:25 GMT 1 Telemachus said: Well I for one would be interested to hear your proposal. Presumably it involves sitting out low water in the Ribble estuary. I have no idea whether there is sufficient depth to do that (probably depends on the type of tide) but surely, even though there would be less fuel consumed, it would take longer bobbing about waiting for the tide to come in? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Not a proposal, . . but a variation on what we used to do running light back to Preston Docks from Tarleton back in the early 1960's on the trial runs for the prospective bagged chemicals traffic for ICI at Anderton. Back then, we would pen out of Tarleton about an hour after half Ebb, then a very steady run down the Douglas (the 'Asland', as some of the older local ex-boatmen called it) to the river's end, hang around for an hour or so in the vicinity of Five Mile Perch/Astland Light, then run up to Preston Docks on the first of the Flood. Now, with only pleasure craft going up to Preston from Tarleton, it would be more convenient, and make an overnight wait for the next Flood posible, if so desired, . . to wait on the floating landing stages at the boatyard that's about a mile downriver from Tarleton. It must be around two years now since I spoke with the boatyard about doing this. They were quite happy about making such an arrangement, . . and appeared somewhat surprised that nobody had asked about it before. I had a look at the tide times for Preston dock, quite surprised that there is such a big difference between ebb duration and flood duration despite it not being very far inland. As in about 2.5 hrs for the flood and 10 hrs for the ebb. But the Astland Lamp is about 1/2 way between Preston and the sea, so the tidal asymmetry is going to be less, maybe 4.5 hrs and 8 hrs at a complete guess. But up at Tarlton the tide times are more likely to be similar to Preston I’d have thought. So, keeping things simple and as a worked example, let’s say high tide at Tarlton is 08:00 and low tide is 18:00 and next high is 20:30. So you would propose leaving Tarlton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30 or so. I’m sure this would be feasible and economical but it makes for a very long duration passage, and whilst feasible with the tide times given I think there would be plenty of days when tide times were different, when the passage couldn’t be completed in daylight especially if you include completing the rest of the “link” up to the Lanky. Stopping overnight at the boatyard would be a possibility but again this adds to the duration considerably, and most canal boaters prefer being on a canal rather than overnighting on a tidal river (not that there is anything particularly wrong with overnighting on a tidal river, it’s just something leisure narrowboaters aren’t used to. And I can’t really imagine that the boatyard owner would be offering this service for free! So whilst there certainly are alternative strategies, they aren’t without their own problems. Your proposal would certainly increase the number of days when the transit was possible, but then we also have to look at the demand and the cost of manning and managing the transits. The transit is for leisure purposes, not commercial purposes, and so it doesn’t particularly matter if transit days are limited, provided the overall number of boats wanting to make the transit can be accommodated within a week or two of desired time. I suspect that if CRT had two alternative booking options, one for a transit on one tide as is current practice, and another one for days when the tides made this impossible but a 2-tide transit as per your proposal was possible but would take 11 hrs or so just to reach the Savick brook sea lock, nearly everyone would opt for the first option and the second option would be very under-subscribed.
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 18, 2024 21:39:23 GMT
Apr 18, 2024 11:51:25 GMT 1 Telemachus said: Well I for one would be interested to hear your proposal. Presumably it involves sitting out low water in the Ribble estuary. I have no idea whether there is sufficient depth to do that (probably depends on the type of tide) but surely, even though there would be less fuel consumed, it would take longer bobbing about waiting for the tide to come in? ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ Not a proposal, . . but a variation on what we used to do running light back to Preston Docks from Tarleton back in the early 1960's on the trial runs for the prospective bagged chemicals traffic for ICI at Anderton. Back then, we would pen out of Tarleton about an hour after half Ebb, then a very steady run down the Douglas (the 'Asland', as some of the older local ex-boatmen called it) to the river's end, hang around for an hour or so in the vicinity of Five Mile Perch/Astland Light, then run up to Preston Docks on the first of the Flood. Now, with only pleasure craft going up to Preston from Tarleton, it would be more convenient, and make an overnight wait for the next Flood posible, if so desired, . . to wait on the floating landing stages at the boatyard that's about a mile downriver from Tarleton. It must be around two years now since I spoke with the boatyard about doing this. They were quite happy about making such an arrangement, . . and appeared somewhat surprised that nobody had asked about it before. So, keeping things simple and as a worked example, let’s say high tide at Tarlton is 08:00 and low tide is 18:00 and next high is 20:30. So you would propose leaving Tarlton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30 or so. I’m sure this would be feasible and economical but it makes for a very long duration passage, and whilst feasible with the tide times given I think there would be plenty of days when tide times were different, when the passage couldn’t be completed in daylight especially if you include completing the rest of the “link” up to the Lanky. Stopping overnight at the boatyard would be a possibility but again this adds to the duration considerably, and most canal boaters prefer being on a canal rather than overnighting on a tidal river (not that there is anything particularly wrong with overnighting on a tidal river, it’s just something leisure narrowboaters aren’t used to. And I can’t really imagine that the boatyard owner would be offering this service for free! So whilst there certainly are alternative strategies, they aren’t without their own problems. Your proposal would certainly increase the number of days when the transit was possible, but then we also have to look at the demand and the cost of manning and managing the transits. No, . . I certainly would NOT propose leaving Tarleton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30. Your estimate of Flood and Ebb duration at Tarleton is about right for basis arbitrary working figures, without reckoning in and allowing for the effects of wind direction and strength, and atmospheric pressure. Your simple worked example, however, with HW at Tarleton and Preston at 0800 hrs, starts with a major incorrect presumption about departure time, and then continues in the same vein about what happens next. Penning out into the river at Tarleton, at or shortly after local HW is absolutely NOT what you should be doing if bound for Preston. The Ebb at Tarleton runs down for around 10 hours. In anything apart from exceptional weather and tides there's normally enough depth over the outer cill for shallow draught pleasure craft to pen out into the river at Tarleton for a total of around 8 hours, twice every day -- local HW minus 2 hours to local HW plus 6 hours. Any boats bound for Preston should be making good use of ALL of the daylight hours out of those 16 hours out of every day, . . and penning out into the river as soon as possible after arriving at Tarleton - NOT farting about, wasting time and opportunity, waiting for the 'booked in' time they've been given by some office chair polishing goon at C&RT. Once they're out in the river, depending on the time of day and the time of the next Low Water/Flood in the Ribble, they can then make the choice to either carry on up to Preston with the next Flood on that day, or wait overnight at the nearby boatyard for the next day's tide. I'll deal with the other points you've raised after we've got your misconceptions about times for penning out at Tarleton straightened out.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Apr 18, 2024 21:58:19 GMT
So, keeping things simple and as a worked example, let’s say high tide at Tarlton is 08:00 and low tide is 18:00 and next high is 20:30. So you would propose leaving Tarlton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30 or so. I’m sure this would be feasible and economical but it makes for a very long duration passage, and whilst feasible with the tide times given I think there would be plenty of days when tide times were different, when the passage couldn’t be completed in daylight especially if you include completing the rest of the “link” up to the Lanky. Stopping overnight at the boatyard would be a possibility but again this adds to the duration considerably, and most canal boaters prefer being on a canal rather than overnighting on a tidal river (not that there is anything particularly wrong with overnighting on a tidal river, it’s just something leisure narrowboaters aren’t used to. And I can’t really imagine that the boatyard owner would be offering this service for free! So whilst there certainly are alternative strategies, they aren’t without their own problems. Your proposal would certainly increase the number of days when the transit was possible, but then we also have to look at the demand and the cost of manning and managing the transits. No, . . I certainly would NOT propose leaving Tarleton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30. Your estimate of Flood and Ebb duration at Tarleton is about right for basis arbitrary working figures, without reckoning in and allowing for the effects of wind direction and strength, and atmospheric pressure. Your simple worked example, however, with HW at Tarleton and Preston at 0800 hrs, starts with a major incorrect presumption about departure time, and then continues in the same vein about what happens next. Penning out into the river at Tarleton, at or shortly after local HW is absolutely NOT what you should be doing if bound for Preston. The Ebb at Tarleton runs down for around 10 hours. In anything apart from exceptional weather and tides there's normally enough depth over the outer cill for shallow draught pleasure craft to pen out into the river at Tarleton for a total of around 8 hours, twice every day -- local HW minus 2 hours to local HW plus 6 hours. Any boats bound for Preston should be making good use of ALL of the daylight hours out of those 16 hours out of every day, . . and penning out into the river as soon as possible after arriving at Tarleton - NOT farting about, wasting time and oportunities, waiting for the 'booked in' time they've been given by some office chair polishing goon at C&RT. Once they're out in the river, depending on the time of day and the time of the next Low Water/Flood in the Ribble, they can then make the choice to either carry on up to Preston with the next Flood on that day, or wait overnight at the nearby boatyard for the next day's tide. I'll deal with the other points you've raised after we've got your misconceptions about times for penning out at Tarleton straightened out. Sorry I misread your previous post where you mentioned penning out at Tarleton - I read half an hour after the ebb which I took that to mean 30 mins after the start of the ebb ie 30 mins after high tide. I have not been there, so I have no idea how much water is in the river at different states of tide.
But I see that is not what you said, sorry! An hour after half ebb - so with the times I mentioned that would be 14:00 departure to arrive at 19:30. This certainly makes it more feasible. I suppose one question that neither of us know, is how much depth there is around low water in 2024 - your experience is from a long time ago and you can bet that no dredging has been done recently, so it will depend on how much natural scouring takes place I suppose. Also around low water, how easy is it for an amateur pleasure boater to remain in deep enough water in the middle of large expanses of mud flats with fairly poor visual references?
|
|
|
Post by on Apr 19, 2024 10:56:55 GMT
You managed to shut him up!
Medal time.
Good point about the visual references. Very important unless you are an expert.
|
|
|
Post by dogless on Apr 19, 2024 11:31:06 GMT
Probably a mistake to ask but here goes ... I understand C&RT operate the locks at either end, which are secured when not operated by C&RT staff (or their agents at Tarleton). If this is the case then surely you have no choice but to go when C&RT say so ... there is no alternative. I understand he's suggesting what he considers a better way, but it's not a realistic option, just hypothetical. Or am I wrong again 😊 I assume Mr Stabby Andyberg or indeed Telemachus may know. Rog
|
|
|
Post by Aloysius on Apr 19, 2024 12:27:24 GMT
You managed to shut him up! For three weeks?
|
|
|
Post by on Apr 19, 2024 13:03:54 GMT
Probably a mistake to ask but here goes ... I understand C&RT operate the locks at either end, which are secured when not operated by C&RT staff (or their agents at Tarleton). If this is the case then surely you have no choice but to go when C&RT say so ... there is no alternative. I understand he's suggesting what he considers a better way, but it's not a realistic option, just hypothetical. Or am I wrong again 😊 Rog
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 19, 2024 13:54:48 GMT
Probably a mistake to ask but here goes ... I understand C&RT operate the locks at either end, which are secured when not operated by C&RT staff (or their agents at Tarleton). If this is the case then surely you have no choice but to go when C&RT say so ... there is no alternative. I understand he's suggesting what he considers a better way, but it's not a realistic option, just hypothetical. Or am I wrong again 😊 Rog Of course you're wrong, . . Alice. You're reliably and consistently wrong, because you're so thick, . . and so incredibly stupid, that you find it impossible to even begin to understand a few sentences of plain simple written English. You really must stick to less complex subjects in the course of pursuing your long standing internet trolling habit.
|
|
|
Post by Aloysius on Apr 19, 2024 14:02:29 GMT
This shit is all so predictable.
Suggestions of other groups who are incompetent worthless nobodies in need of expert advice anybody? Nuclear power station engineers?
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 19, 2024 14:35:30 GMT
Bomb disposal engineer! They need someone to hold their hand, actually rather than metaphorically.
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 21, 2024 7:38:25 GMT
No, . . I certainly would NOT propose leaving Tarleton at around 08:30 with a view to arriving at Savick Brook around 19:30. Your estimate of Flood and Ebb duration at Tarleton is about right for basis arbitrary working figures, without reckoning in and allowing for the effects of wind direction and strength, and atmospheric pressure. Your simple worked example, however, with HW at Tarleton and Preston at 0800 hrs, starts with a major incorrect presumption about departure time, and then continues in the same vein about what happens next. Penning out into the river at Tarleton, at or shortly after local HW is absolutely NOT what you should be doing if bound for Preston. The Ebb at Tarleton runs down for around 10 hours. In anything apart from exceptional weather and tides there's normally enough depth over the outer cill for shallow draught pleasure craft to pen out into the river at Tarleton for a total of around 8 hours, twice every day -- local HW minus 2 hours to local HW plus 6 hours. Any boats bound for Preston should be making good use of ALL of the daylight hours out of those 16 hours out of every day, . . and penning out into the river as soon as possible after arriving at Tarleton - NOT farting about, wasting time and oportunities, waiting for the 'booked in' time they've been given by some office chair polishing goon at C&RT. Once they're out in the river, depending on the time of day and the time of the next Low Water/Flood in the Ribble, they can then make the choice to either carry on up to Preston with the next Flood on that day, or wait overnight at the nearby boatyard for the next day's tide. I'll deal with the other points you've raised after we've got your misconceptions about times for penning out at Tarleton straightened out. Sorry I misread your previous post where you mentioned penning out at Tarleton - I read half an hour after the ebb which I took that to mean 30 mins after the start of the ebb ie 30 mins after high tide. I have not been there, so I have no idea how much water is in the river at different states of tide.
But I see that is not what you said, sorry! An hour after half ebb - so with the times I mentioned that would be 14:00 departure to arrive at 19:30. This certainly makes it more feasible. I suppose one question that neither of us know, is how much depth there is around low water in 2024 - your experience is from a long time ago and you can bet that no dredging has been done recently, so it will depend on how much natural scouring takes place I suppose. Also around low water, how easy is it for an amateur pleasure boater to remain in deep enough water in the middle of large expanses of mud flats with fairly poor visual references?
In post < thunderboat.boards.net/post/395943/thread > I said " I'll deal with the other points you've raised after we've got your misconceptions about times for penning out at Tarleton straightened out.". It appears from the post quoted above that your misconceptions are far from straightened out, and you've yet to grasp the basic essentials of how to work round tides and tide times in rivers and estuaries. C&RT too, have little to no understanding of the basic principles and practices that really must not be deviated from or ignored. Lack of the necessary sound background knowledge, and being neither willing nor able to adapt to or make the best use of whatever circumstances and conditions prevail on the day is not a formula for the successful planning of safe and efficient routine tidal passage making. The two questions you ask above, and the answers to them, aren't applicable to planning Tarleton to Preston passages. The last couple of miles of the Douglas (Astland/Asland), on the last of the Ebb or around local LW, is no place for canal pleasure craft crewed by amateur part timers unfamiliar with tidal estuaries to be messing about. On mean tides or bigger, there's usually a fairly big fast moving tidal bore in the Ribble, . . comparable with the Trent Aegre from around Owston Ferry and on up to Gainsborough. There are also numerous sandbanks and shoals, many of which dry out at local LW, extending a good mile or more up the Douglas from Astland Light. The last few hundred yards of the Douglas, including the scoured out deepwater channel that runs close to the training wall, is almost like a mirror image of the Trent in the area of South Trent, North Trent, and Apex Lights. The question of dredging doesn't arise. The deepwater channel in the Ribble was dredged regularly when shipping was still using Preston Docks, . . but the lower reaches of the Douglas, all the way down to Astland Light, were always left to the process of natural scouring, in the same way the Trent is left to scour out the deepwater channel itself from Cliff End, past Middle Sand, to Apex Light. The only safe, practical, and efficient option for shallow draught pleasure craft making the Tarleton to Preston passage is to pen out into the river Douglas as soon as possible after arriving at Tarleton. This can be done at any time during the period of anything up to 16 hours out of every whole tidal day* during which there is sufficient depth of water in the lock tail and over the outer cill for them. Once in the river, they can, and should, move the short distance downriver to the boatyard, and wait on the boatyard floating stages in the river Douglas for the Flood (tide) that's going to take them up the Ribble and into Savick Brook. Making use of a few minutes out of those many hours of opportunity, by penning out into the river as soon as possible after arrival at Tarleton means, in effect, that you don't 'use up' any of one tide at all. It's the next tide - one tide only - that's taken up with the Tarleton to Preston passage. Unlike the ridiculous C&RT booking/scheduling arrangements that waste time, and one whole tide, by making you wait in the canal at Tarleton for the remainder of the day on which you arrive there, . . if you pen out into river as soon after arriving at Tarleton as you possibly can, then you're all set to catch the next day's tide - one tide only - up the Ribble to Preston, . . at exactly the right time. Catching the Flood running up to Preston at exactly the right time - which is NOT possible if you follow C&RT's Mickey Mouse and potentially quite risky scheduling for penning out into the river at Tarleton - means that you'll have the Flood under you all the way upriver from Astland Light, and you'll be turning into the Savick Brook's Ribble outfall on a rising tide, which rules out any possibility of having to divert to Preston Docks Marina, and having to wait, . . and pay, . . overnight in there for the next day's first tide to get you the mile and a bit back down river and into the so-called 'Ribble Link'. * Average duration 24 hrs 51 mins.
|
|
|
Post by on Apr 21, 2024 8:29:37 GMT
My old grandfather got a MBE for bomb disposal and war effort (factories made radio boxes and other wooden articles).
True story.
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Apr 21, 2024 10:17:13 GMT
My old grandfather got a MBE for bomb disposal and war effort (factories made radio boxes and other wooden articles). True story. You would be well advised to make that the last bit of nuisance trolling you do. Restrict your idiotic nonsense to the vast selection of pointless topics/threads from which you and the other forum arsewipes gain so much mindless satisfaction.
|
|