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Post by JohnV on Dec 23, 2018 12:03:21 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 12:58:33 GMT
Nice to see the vertical white line on the stem in the first picture Its something I have added to one of my boats for low light visibility. I had not seen it on other boats before it was just an idea I had. As for the visibility from the helm I am mostly influenced by boating on the Thames where there is always a chance of some dickhead rower getting under the bows. Unfortunately there has been a case already and it turned out the narrow boat skipper was the guilty party. On the other hand not being able to see anything without cameras might make one concentrate more. And there are always the cameras for that blind spot. Sabina H has considerably better forward visibility than the db Elisabeth to be fair. Another design fault with the db Elisabeth is that the companionway info the cabin impinges too much on the helm position so if you did want to move to the starboard side of the wheelhouse to get a better view you would be be obstructed. Interestingly the larboard side of the wheelhouse is accessible and this is the side you would normally pass other vessels so the problem has been recognised and addressed partially. When I passed it on the upper Thames the skipper was initially not visible then he moved over to the larboard side of the wheelhouse to eyeball my boat. I really like the boat I've seen it in the flesh several times but I think it has a fundamental problem. Possibly less serious for a taller person.
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Post by kris on Dec 23, 2018 13:44:33 GMT
You get used to judging what is going on ahead of you This Is what I tried but failed miserably to explain to magnetman yesterday. He just got hung up on the fact that I called him a Volvo driver. I would recommend he doesn't get an old working barge of any description. Even on my boat which isn't bad, you can't see the water directly in front. This only becomes an issue when you get, kayakers who insist on zig zagging backwards and forwards in front of the boat.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 14:02:21 GMT
Its okay I can't see the water directly in front of my barge either and I have single handed it from Limehouse to Lechlade and back with no problems whatsoever. The boat I am talking about has unusually high bows because of the slightly caricaturish "sheer". Look at it. It is completely different to old working barges. Its just a design fault. Not the end of the world but it is a problem for steering that particular boat. And JohnV reference to large commercial vessels is not really comparable because on a large commercial you basically have the right of way anyway due to depth constraints so if anyone gets in the way its just tough luck for them. Not quite the same with a small pleasure vessel.
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Post by bargemast on Dec 23, 2018 14:28:35 GMT
Its okay I can't see the water directly in front of my barge either and I have single handed it from Limehouse to Lechlade and back with no problems whatsoever. The boat I am talking about has unusually high bows because of the slightly caricaturish "sheer". Look at it. It is completely different to old working barges. Its just a design fault. Not the end of the world but it is a problem for steering that particular boat. And JohnV reference to large commercial vessels is not really comparable because on a large commercial you basically have the right of way anyway due to depth constraints so if anyone gets in the way its just tough luck for them. Not quite the same with a small pleasure vessel. You're saying: "it is a problem for steering that particular boat", without having first hand experience of this, or have you ever had the opportunity to check it out for real ? It may very well be something you'll get easily used to, and you may find-out that the visibility is a lot better than you thought it would be. Although is quite likely that you would never admit it if that worked out to be the case . Peter.
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Post by kris on Dec 23, 2018 14:46:56 GMT
Its okay I can't see the water directly in front of my barge either and I have single handed it from Limehouse to Lechlade and back with no problems whatsoever. The boat I am talking about has unusually high bows because of the slightly caricaturish "sheer". Look at it. It is completely different to old working barges. Its just a design fault. Not the end of the world but it is a problem for steering that particular boat. And JohnV reference to large commercial vessels is not really comparable because on a large commercial you basically have the right of way anyway due to depth constraints so if anyone gets in the way its just tough luck for them. Not quite the same with a small pleasure vessel. You're saying: "it is a problem for steering that particular boat", without having first hand experience of this, or have you ever had the opportunity to check it out for real ? It may very well be something you'll get easily used to, and you may find-out that the visibility is a lot better than you thought it would be. Although is quite likely that you would never admit it if that worked out to be the case . Peter. I've noticed magnetman is very good at surveying boats from viewing a few pictures on the Internet, it might be the ideal job for him. He could undercut real life surveyors by a substantial margin.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 14:52:19 GMT
I would admit it. I'm not a denial sort of person. When I approached this boat a few years ago on the Thames half way between Chertsey and Shepperton locks by Chertsey Meads (I can remember the exact location as the boat is quite impressive) I was firstly impressed by the high bows and thought it was a larger boat then I became aware the skipper was completely invisible and would not be able to see me unless he had a camera then he appeared on the larboard side of the wheelhouse - away from the helm position. Interesting that there appears to be some sort of dashboard/control panel mounted there at right angles to the main controls. What's that about?
I know this is acceptable as a helming technique but unfortunately lack of visibility forward and astern causes some bad things. Marchioness disaster was caused by modification of the stern deck into a cabin which meant the skipper could not see behind. He had to leave the helm and look out the side to see behind. Also the cabin altered the cog and cob of the vessel so when it was struck from behind it rolled over very quickly.
I don't know anyone effected by the marchioness disaster personally but I was involved in a boat sinking immediately afterwards which resulted in a massive emergency services call out. I sunk a dinghy with 6 children in it so nothing for serious but it was just after the Marchioness so someone telling the police a boat had sunk with passengers..
It wasn't a visibility problem it was a dead fish one of the kids saw it and said "oh look" so the others moved forwards to have a look and the dinghy nosedived and turned over. It was great because it had air trapped so it floated. No buoyancy and an outboard so if could have been lost which would have been very bad news. I was steering the dinghy and was one of the 6 children being 15 at the time. The others were 11 or 12 as it was my sisters birthday. Everyone survived. No lifejackets. I did save a life that evening.
So I am sensitive about the safety of boats and visibility.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 15:03:53 GMT
it may very well be something you'll get easily used to, and you may find-out that the visibility is a lot better than you thought it would be. Peter. I bloody well hope so as I fully intend to buy it now that another old relative has died
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Post by kris on Dec 23, 2018 15:07:35 GMT
So I am sensitive about the safety of boats and visibility. This is not a bad thing, Personally I don't care if I squash a few rowers and kayakers that insist on swerving into the path of the boat.
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Post by bargemast on Dec 23, 2018 15:11:54 GMT
Someone told me that there was an ocean liner that was supposed to be unsinkable that went down after having hit an iceberg that made a huge split in the hull passing several watertight bulkheads that weren't closed to start with, I don't remember it's name, but they made a film of it . The Marchioness probably didn't have watertight bulkheads, or they were left open too, if not she wouldn't have gone down. Accidents can-and do happen, most often due to human failure, I've been captain on passenger boats on the Seine, where it's very busy, and often strong current with many bridges to pass, and having to share the waterway with (too) many other boats. There have been some very serious accidents there too, due to the fact that the crew were sharing the drinks that were supplied to the passengers for a wedding or other celebrations, which of course wasn't favorable in judging the distance to bridges and other boats. On one occasion the helmsman, after having run over a small pleasure boat therby killing 2 people, was diagnosed to have been heavely drinking and had used dope aswell. I don't know if something like this could have been (part off) the reason for the accident on the Thames, as that boat was mostly used for partying too. Peter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 15:14:17 GMT
kris Agree entirely however there is a precedent unfortunately. Narrow boat hit a rower somewhere near reading I can't remember all the details but the result was narrow boat skipper was liable. Rowers go all over the shop and are in the ridiculous position of looking the wrong way but for some reason they get looked after if they cause problems. Probably because they know the judge.
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Post by bargemast on Dec 23, 2018 15:17:17 GMT
kris Agree entirely however there is a precedent unfortunately. Narrow boat hit a rower somewhere near reading I can't remember all the details but the result was narrow boat skipper was liable. Rowers go all over the shop and are in the ridiculous position of looking the wrong way but for some reason they get looked after if they cause problems. Probably because they know the judge. It should be obliged for rowers to wear a rear-view mirror, on a headband or something like that, they often seem to think that the waterway belongs to them. Peter.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 15:17:42 GMT
Someone told me that there was an ocean liner that was supposed to be unsinkable that went down after having hit an iceberg that made a huge split in the hull passing several watertight bulkheads that weren't closed to start with, I don't remember it's name, but they made a film of it . The Marchioness probably didn't have watertight bulkheads, or they were left open too, if not she wouldn't have gone down. Accidents can-and do happen, most often due to human failure, I've been captain on passenger boats on the Seine, where it's very busy, and often strong current with many bridges to pass, and having to share the waterway with (too) many other boats. There have been some very serious accidents there too, due to the fact that the crew were sharing the drinks that were supplied to the passengers for a wedding or other celebrations, which of course wasn't favorable in judging the distance to bridges and other boats. On one occasion the helmsman, after having run over a small pleasure boat therby killing 2 people, was diagnosed to have been heavely drinking and had used dope aswell. I don't know if something like this could have been (part off) the reason for the accident on the Thames, as that boat was mostly used for partying too. Peter. There is no doubt about that we all know the skipper of the Bow Belle was bolloxed. That's public knowledge however the MAIB report suggests that the fact that visibility was compromised (in this case astern visibility) contributed to the accident because the skipper of the ex Salters steamer Marchioness was in a position where his astern visibility was significantly reduced. www.gov.uk/maib-reports/collision-between-aggregates-dredger-bowbelle-and-passenger-vessel-marchioness-on-the-river-thames-england-resulting-in-marchioness-sinking-with-loss-of-51-lives
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2018 15:19:33 GMT
kris Agree entirely however there is a precedent unfortunately. Narrow boat hit a rower somewhere near reading I can't remember all the details but the result was narrow boat skipper was liable. Rowers go all over the shop and are in the ridiculous position of looking the wrong way but for some reason they get looked after if they cause problems. Probably because they know the judge. It should be obliged for rowers to wear a rearview mirror, on a headband or something like that, they often seem to think that the waterway belongs to them. Peter. Definitely. I did notice a few this summer on the Thames with mirrors. I could have told them 25 years ago to do it but I am beginning to wonder if if is creeping into their insurance policies. They already have to have a rubber "bow ball" which helps to prevent the sharp end penetrating other vessels. I believe the failure to have a bow ball is an offence of some sort.
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Post by kris on Dec 23, 2018 15:23:07 GMT
kris Agree entirely however there is a precedent unfortunately. Narrow boat hit a rower somewhere near reading I can't remember all the details but the result was narrow boat skipper was liable. Rowers go all over the shop and are in the ridiculous position of looking the wrong way but for some reason they get looked after if they cause problems. Probably because they know the judge. I think it comes from a lack of understanding of the different handling qualities of different vessels. I find a lot of narrowboaters are surprised when they find out that my boat can't stop in its own length like a lot of narrowboats. The same with a lot of small unpowered craft users don't understand that once you get within 10m or so of my bow I can't see you if your at water level, so if you insist on keep zig zagging about there is very little I can do on a narrow canal. Personally when I'm in my tender and I see a powered vessel coming towards me, I'll move over to one side or the other and remain stationery until the vessal has passed. But this is out of a sense of self preservation, rather than politeness.
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