|
Post by dogless on Jul 6, 2023 8:13:07 GMT
There is another side issue.
C&RT have been removing bins and elsan points for years, to such an extent that in many places it's necessary or at least convenient to use boatyard and marina facilities, paying directly.
Currently on the Macclesfield I had to pay Β£2.50 per cassette to empty at Heritage as due to lock restrictions it wasn't viable to use the Bosley services, and I didn't wish to rush down to Red Bull on the T&M.
In many areas now, unless setting your travelling itinerary to simply visiting C&RT service points, it's necessary to use private facilities.
I do wonder if such a situation will encourage some to simply take the unpleasant 'hedge bottom option' ... not good.
Rog
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Jul 6, 2023 9:08:19 GMT
There is another side issue. C&RT have been removing bins and elsan points for years, to such an extent that in many places it's necessary or at least convenient to use boatyard and marina facilities, paying directly. Currently on the Macclesfield I had to pay Β£2.50 per cassette to empty at Heritage as due to lock restrictions it wasn't viable to use the Bosley services, and I didn't wish to rush down to Red Bull on the T&M. In many areas now, unless setting your travelling itinerary to simply visiting C&RT service points, it's necessary to use private facilities. I do wonder if such a situation will encourage some to simply take the unpleasant 'hedge bottom option' ... not good. Rog Of course this raises another issue, those with cassette toilets get to dispose of their shit for free, whereas those of us who collect it in a larger tank to be disposed of less frequently, have to pay for disposal. How is that fair? Of course you could (and you will!) say that itβs our choice to have a pump out tank rather than having to take our shit for walkies every few days. But at the root of this is that there are two different models, one a fixed payment to cover everything regardless of actual usage, or a pay per use model. In society we have both models routinely, I have to pay a lot of council tax, most of which goes to paying for local schools and social services, neither of which I have ever used - the fixed payment model - whereas when I want to park my car I have to pay the council or car park company on a per-use basis. We are accustomed to the canal model being a fixed payment one, but there is no reason why this is the βcorrectβ model other than perhaps it is cheaper to administer.
|
|
|
Post by β on Jul 6, 2023 9:51:30 GMT
The last bit of the post by dogless explains why elsan disposal is free. without it remaining free there -will- be problems. It is much easier to empty an elsan cassette in the hedge and disappear than it is to offload a holding tank and not be noticed.
|
|
|
Post by fi on Jul 6, 2023 9:54:33 GMT
Elsan is free at CRT facilities - included in licence fee - no expensive machines to supply and maintain.
|
|
|
Post by β on Jul 6, 2023 9:56:31 GMT
Elsan is free at CRT facilities - included in licence fee - no expensive machines to supply and maintain. Some CRT elsan points have pumps and get blocked so there are maintenance costs. I doubt someone cleaning other peoples shit is going to be a volunteer.
|
|
|
Post by β on Jul 6, 2023 9:58:04 GMT
The point is that as CRT elsan points get closed it pushes people to private operators who may well charge a fee so the motivation to empty in the hedge is increased.
It does make sense and could be a major problem.
|
|
|
Post by fi on Jul 6, 2023 9:58:35 GMT
But those costs are factored into the licence fee. You want additional facilities then pay for them.
|
|
|
Post by β on Jul 6, 2023 10:04:05 GMT
I agree but the story is that the CRT are closing facilities. Maybe this is related to those with buildings I don't know. One hopes that kris persists in his quest for information as it is interesting. Is there anything to stop the CRT simply closing all of the elsan points? I seem to recall they are not obliged to provide this service. I burn the shit on my off grid boat these days but not everyone wants to engage in this behaviour.
|
|
|
Post by fi on Jul 6, 2023 10:10:29 GMT
Not sure whether CRT have to provide the facilities, but things are going to get worse. This is the current plan.
canalrivertrust.org.uk/enjoy-the-waterways/boating/boating-news-and-views/boating-blogs-and-features/customer-services-facilities-policy
Water points, refuse/recycling, Elsan and pump out facilities should be provided no more than a dayβs cruising apart* for water, refuse/recycling and Elsan and two days** cruising for pump out.
The essential provision includes a maximum cruising time that the Trust will aim to achieve across our waterways. There are some waterways where very high demand may require a lower maximum cruising time between facilities or additional facilities at existing locations where they are provided. However, at some locations restricting factors such as a lack of suitable sites with necessary connections to services and or access to maintain services will mean a longer maximum cruising time.
The essential provision of CSF will not include showers, public toilets (although these will still be provided at some key destinations and for volunteers/staff use), washing machines and tumble driers. Phase two of our review of CSF will involve identifying facilities that are not part of the minimum provision. All facilities not part of minimum provision will be considered for closure using the CSF Closure process standard which will include an impact assessment and consultation with stakeholders. If there is excess provision of facilities over and above the minimum standard, then some may be removed provided the minimum standard can still be met.
Where showers, toilets or other facilities that are not part of the essential provision are subject to unplanned closure due to vandalism and/or breakdown, these will remain closed but water, refuse/recycling, Elsan and pump out required to meet the minimum standard would be retained.
|
|
|
Post by β on Jul 6, 2023 10:17:22 GMT
Funny situation could develop where more people are emptying at Will and more people using filtration systems for the water. Or maybe people will work out living on boats isn't all that great.
I'm rapidly moving towards the 'a stately home would be nicer' viewpoint.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Jul 6, 2023 11:03:05 GMT
I agree but the story is that the CRT are closing facilities. Maybe this is related to those with buildings I don't know. One hopes that kris persists in his quest for information as it is interesting. Is there anything to stop the CRT simply closing all of the elsan points? I seem to recall they are not obliged to provide this service. I burn the shit on my off grid boat these days but not everyone wants to engage in this behaviour. I am going to persist in getting the imformation. Then I will publicise it. The policy of closing facilities is on the face of it a cost saving thing. But itβs also about making it difficult and less attractive to live on boats. They have also cut down the number of visits the facilities get for cleaning etc. Crt are clever in their actions because if they said we are removing all facilities. There would be uproar, rightfully so. But if they just let them get run down and close them, then remove them bit by bit it isnβt so obvious and not so easy to campaign against.
|
|
|
Post by β on Jul 6, 2023 11:21:28 GMT
It is interesting to consider why the CRT are closing facilities.
Important in these things not to assume that one's own circumstances are ruling the behaviour of large organisations.
Tony tends to fall in this trap. He thinks he is relevant but this in no way true.
It is possible that the services provision (RSW) has been identified by a bean counter as a high cost which could be reduced. In reality it may just be an accounting decision and nothing to do with discouraging liveaboard boaters.
If you live on a boat off grid you have to be prepared to do unusual things.
If you can't handle this then live on land with services or get a serviced mooring.
I would suggest on balance of probability that this is a financial decision unrelated to liveaboard boaters.
|
|
|
Post by dogless on Jul 6, 2023 11:33:30 GMT
My friend has an electric self pump out machine which he purchased back in 2002 for Β£600, and has used at elsan points all around the system since.
However he has pointed out to me that over the past five years or so more and more elsans he has previously used, are now signed 'Not suitable for self pump out'.
He has enquired from C&RT who say he can pump out into containers and then empty them into the elsan, but not directly pump out. Of course this requires carrying a number of large containers about for the purpose, which isn't very practical.
So not just cassette users being 'squeezed' by C&RT.
Rog
|
|
|
Post by β on Jul 6, 2023 11:35:09 GMT
I don't think self pumpout can ever be legal if you have to lie a thick hose across a public right of way.
Surely it is a tripping hazard.
Anyway the term 'self pumpout' is too dodgy.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Jul 6, 2023 11:35:39 GMT
Letβs face it. None of the navigation authorities have ever liked towpath dwellers. They are not stupid so the consequences of decisions are understood. Crt are not a poor organisation, they just hemmorage money. Their is going to be trouble over the removal of services.
|
|