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Post by kris on Feb 13, 2024 12:16:53 GMT
Anybody got a recommendation for a boost starter pack? I’ve just replaced my starter battery unfortunately Whilst being only 14ah smaller than the old one it has less CCA’s . It has successfully started the engine once, but won’t do it successfully every time. It just runs out of Ommph. It will be fine in summer but some kind of booster pack in winter might be the go. Any recommendations.
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Post by tonyb on Feb 13, 2024 14:26:58 GMT
Anybody got a recommendation for a boost starter pack? I’ve just replaced my starter battery unfortunately Whilst being only 14ah smaller than the old one it has less CCA’s . It has successfully started the engine once, but won’t do it successfully every time. It just runs out of Ommph. It will be fine in summer but some kind of booster pack in winter might be the go. Any recommendations.
With no numbers (Ah capacity of old & new and/or CCA), one can't be sure, but it sounds as if you may have more than a battery problem to deal with. Also, battery voltage while cranking may show if it is the battery or something odd like a resistive connection or master switch.
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Post by kris on Feb 13, 2024 14:32:34 GMT
Basically it’s 200 cca’s less than the one I had. I’ve checked all the connections etc. It started the engine the other day , just. But yesterday and today no go. Obviously I keep having to charge the battery up after each attempt which isn’t a problem. The new battery is 140ah 800cca it’s a good brand from a reliable source, I think it just hadn’t got the oomph because it’s colder than the other day. It’s my fault I thought the fewer cranking amps wouldn’t be a problem. The old battery always started the engine easily. But I’ve been coaxing it through for about 18months. I thought a rechargeable jump pack might be a good idea for winter use. As I say I’m sure this battery will be okay during the rest of the year.
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Post by tonyb on Feb 13, 2024 14:58:13 GMT
Basically it’s 200 cca’s less than the one I had. I’ve checked all the connections etc. It started the engine the other day , just. But yesterday and today no go. Obviously I keep having to charge the battery up after each attempt which isn’t a problem. The new battery is 140ah 800cca it’s a good brand from a reliable source, I think it just hadn’t got the oomph because it’s colder than the other day. It’s my fault I thought the fewer cranking amps wouldn’t be a problem. The old battery always started the engine easily. But I’ve been coaxing it through for about 18months. I thought a rechargeable jump pack might be a good idea for winter use. As I say I’m sure this battery will be okay during the rest of the year. Well, typically narrowboats tend to use start batteries if around 100Ah with no problem summer or winter, so irrespective of the CCA I think it should do the job. However, it is up to you. You have been coxing it for 18 months, could that be because there is another fault pretending to be bad battery, I don't know, but many starters have two pairs of brushes, but if one brush is stick or worn then you lose half the starting power. That fits the symptoms but without more tests it is not much more than a guess.
The cranking voltage at the battery POSTS (not terminals) will give an idea about how well the battery is performing. Then at the terminals will show if you have dirty posts/terminals.
Measuring the voltage during cranking between the start battery pos. and the main starter terminal would test the whole positive circuit, expect no more than about 0.5 Volts. Then repeat between the start battery negative and the starter case or negative terminal. Expect around 0.3 to 0.5 volts. Any higher voltage shows resistance in the relevant circuit.
I have also known resistive contacts in the ignition/starter switch or poor wiring and termination on the "energise solenoid" cable to give this sort fo symptom.
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Post by kris on Feb 13, 2024 15:23:52 GMT
Thanks for the input. I will clean all of the connections and check voltages tmw. I think by saying coaxing I’ve made it sound more of a problem than it was. The old battery is 6-7 years old and because I don’t have an alternator it’s never really been properly charged. But it’s never had a problem starting the engine easily. Which is why I thought I’d be able to get away with a little bit smaller one. I’m also just going to check it’s getting fuel properly tmw. Just in case, but as I say it started up and ran 2days ago. So what’s changed?
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Post by Aloysius on Feb 13, 2024 16:03:20 GMT
In response to the original q, and knowing a booster pack is adead handy thing in a pinch, I bought a Noco brand item. Not the cheapest but did what it said it would.
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Post by tonyb on Feb 13, 2024 16:15:34 GMT
Thanks for the input. I will clean all of the connections and check voltages tmw. I think by saying coaxing I’ve made it sound more of a problem than it was. The old battery is 6-7 years old and because I don’t have an alternator it’s never really been properly charged. But it’s never had a problem starting the engine easily. Which is why I thought I’d be able to get away with a little bit smaller one. I’m also just going to check it’s getting fuel properly tmw. Just in case, but as I say it started up and ran 2days ago. So what’s changed? So how are you charging it? If from a shore line and charger that is on 24/7 then it is very unlikely to be a flat battery problem. If from solar then two questions:
1. is it actually charging the start battery? - not unusual on simple solar systems. 2. How are you measuring the battery's state of charge?
If your boat has a dynamo then the maximum most common dynamos will charge at is maybe 25 amps and if it is a sealed one about 7 amps (from memory). they would take in excess of 12 hours to fully charge a battery. Alternators only do it marginally faster.
New batteries are very rarely fully charged when you get them and if it has never been fully charged then maybe it is simply now discharged.
I think that you need to get the battery on charge, preferably a mains charger, for 24 hours. Then leave it a day and measure the battery voltage. It should be around 12.7 to 12.8 volts. That is fully charged. then see how it goes.
Remember, starting an engine in tolerably good condition only take a few Ah which is why 10 years life or more is far from uncommon for start batteries.
Edited to add. I would be very reluctant to have a booster pack on my boat because many lithium battery chemistries have a tendency to burst into uncontrollable flames if misused in any way, and that includes the charging. If you must get one, then choose one from a known quality suppler.
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Post by kris on Feb 13, 2024 16:35:02 GMT
I’m charging the battery from 2.2 kw of solar 1000ah Lifepo4 pack. I’m using a stirling charger which has amps and voltage read out when charged it reads 14.1v 1.1 amps which I was thinking it’s pretty well charged. I understand about lithium chemistry’s but I was thinking if I bought a good one and don’t leave it on charge un attended. But I’m beginning to think it might be a fuel issue. The engine is in good condition very little wear usually starts fine. I don’t have a dynamo I charge the starter battery from the solar via battery charger. I’ll give it a good charge tmw and check the connections and that it’s getting fuel.
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Post by tonyb on Feb 13, 2024 16:57:12 GMT
I’m charging the battery from 2.2 kw of solar 1000ah Lifepo4 pack. I’m using a stirling charger which has amps and voltage read out when charged it reads 14.1v 1.1 amps which I was thinking it’s pretty well charged. I understand about lithium chemistry’s but I was thinking if I bought a good one and don’t leave it on charge un attended. But I’m beginning to think it might be a fuel issue. The engine is in good condition very little wear usually starts fine. I don’t have a dynamo I charge the starter battery from the solar via battery charger. Is this "battery charger" a B to B device powered by the Lithium battery. If so then 14.1 volts and 1.1 amps into a 140Ah lead acid battery is, I agree, probably well charged and there should be no reason it will not do repeated starts. That, unfortunately, suggests there is something else going on.
I am pleased you know the dangers of lithium batteries (no LiFePo4s) so as long a st is a quality one with UK support it should be fine. However, using one regularly just covers up another fault (I think).
In the electrical notes on my website (tb-training.co.uk) there is a section on starter circuit testing with diagrams etc. Anyone is free to print the sections out if they wish.
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Post by kris on Feb 13, 2024 17:05:45 GMT
Thanks for the help. I use a 240v battery charger powered by an inverter to charge the battery. I am beginning to think it might be a fuel issue. I’ll check tmw. As I say the engine is in good condition and has probably only got 300-400 hrs of wear usually starts in a couple of rotations, a few more in winter. I’m just hoping I haven’t got diesel bug or sticky diesel.
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Post by tonyb on Feb 13, 2024 19:17:48 GMT
If it is fuel, then one would expect the engine to spin as fast as it ever did on the starter, but just not fire. However, prolonged spinning will deplete the battery a lot more than a typical engine start. So it is a question of how fast it spins on the starter compared with a similar engine on another boat with a serviceable battery.
Thanks for the info about the charger. I am sure a Sterling battery charger will be a smart one, so it will drop to around 13.6ish volts when it thinks the battery is fully charged. That means it is at 14.1V, the charger thinks it is still not charged, but even so I think it should still start easily enough.
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Post by on Feb 13, 2024 19:21:14 GMT
LTO is the best type of battery for starting big diesel engines. 6S LTO charged to 15v.
Even a 3Ah battery will do the job. Charging needs to be controlled by something like B2B or a solar MPPT.
Good quality LTO like Toshiba can do a 50C discharge.
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Post by kris on Feb 13, 2024 19:25:16 GMT
It definately spins as fast as it used to with the old battery. But it won’t spin it for as long as the old one. I’m beginning to think it’s fuel, I’ll have a look at the filter make sure there’s no bug. There was about 35litres that had been in since sept and I put 20 liters of fresh in today ( hope that wasn’t a mistake.) Thanks for your help.
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Post by Aloysius on Feb 13, 2024 19:31:44 GMT
I was wondering when the battery guru would pipe up.
I suppose you can go to all the bother. Or just buy summat designed for the purpose.
I've seen demonstrations of lithium drill batteries being successfully used for the purpose, it seems to be a case of how desperate you are.
One thing about the Noco device: I had imagined it might double as an emergency phone charger but one go and it's done. It's all about a very short but very strong kick, it seems.
Also it's a quite good emergency torch.
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Post by on Feb 13, 2024 20:04:29 GMT
I was wondering when the battery guru would pipe up. Being a battery ultracrepidarian is better than thinking too much about Insane relatives. The jump pack I burnt down was only Because the makers thought an Anderson Sb50 would be a good connector. In a way it is but then someone (me) loses the original croc leads which had a diode pack to prevent bidirectional charging. So I made a new set of leads without the diodes and caused a dangerous situation. The booster pack, which was a 3S NMC chemistry pouch / lipo battery ended up being connected to a lead battery now being charged by an alternator once the engine had started. This was putting out 14 volts. which is well above the top end for a 3S NMC (4.25v per cell). This caused expansion of the pouches, vapour release then thermal runaway and a great big flame. I was lucky as I went in the engine room after I heard a noise so I saw the vapour release starting. That was when I climbed into the engine room. removed the booster pack and hung it orf the side of the Boat. Then it went all fiery and made a whoosh noise rather soon afterwards. So basically they (NMC) can be ok but if you get it wrong they go all dangerous. LTO won't ever do that. They can melt thick wires but the battery itself won't go mad and lose its status as a battery. So yeah. LTO. Great batteries if you have a way to reliably charge a 6S pack say 20Ah or 40ah to 15~15.5 volts. That will start anything which is startable due to the enormous C rating and not much voltage sag. If the engine won't start because it or the fuel supply is fucked that is another story. Interestingly there are some LTO products for people who like ridiculously large sound systems in their cars but lot of questions about alternators and recharging. Quite often, like engine starting, the demand is short term so can be catered for by recharging at a slower speed. |
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