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Post by Telemachus on Jul 2, 2017 20:08:42 GMT
Are you a politician in real life. Expert at talking round a clear question. Tory perhaps?😂😂😂 No, not at all, I am however getting my head around the fact that some just shut their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears and pretend nothing's wrong. All the while suggesting they love the way of life and the waterways, which is total bullshit of course. What they really mean is, I'm alright Jack, and as long as I can use the facility, fuck everyone else. Eventually of course, they will be the next targets, and I'll sit back and laugh my socks off 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂 Look at it from "their" point of view (all very us and them, incidentally). You are saying there is a huge anti-boater CRT agenda. And yet "they" (including me) don't see it in our lives, and we know lots of people of various boater "types" - marina dwellers, weekend boaters, summer season cruisers, live-aboards on paid moorings and of course CCers. And yet nearly all the people we know in these various categories don't have a problem with CRT. But apparently, according to you, we are stupid for not seeing the problems that you relate. We should, apparently, ignore our real-world experiences and base our opinions solely on your worries. Hmmm, that would not be very rational or logical! No-one is saying CRT is perfect, proper maintenance is wanting, the logging system is crap, and certainly in some high profile cases CRT seem to be acting outside the law. But none of that means there is some anti-CCer or live-aboard agenda, for those CCers that use their boats bona fida for navigation, or live-aboards on paid for moorings (if adding 1% to a mooring bill is your idea of anti-live-aboard, I think you are massively over-egging it). We have to go by our version of reality and clearly, it's different from yours even though as I understand it, you personally haven't had significant problems. Perhaps it is like the current social evil of "being offended on someone else's behalf"?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 20:21:58 GMT
We all agree on the problems.
We all agree on the improvements that are needed.
The only point of contention is that you (Jenlyn and Kris) see these issues as being specifically aimed and directed at live aboard boaters.
I see no evidence to support the assertion, merely your view, and I am happy for you to retain that prejudice.
Like yourself (Jenlyn) I have experienced no targeted spite from C&RT, so am obliged to speak as I find.
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 20:27:13 GMT
We all agree on the problems. We all agree on the improvements that are needed. The only point of contention is that you (Jenlyn and Kris) see these issues as being specifically aimed and directed at live aboard boaters. I see no evidence to support the assertion, merely your view, and I am happy for you to retain that prejudice. Like yourself (Jenlyn) I have experienced no targeted spite from C&RT, so am obliged to speak as I find. Rog Who mentioned 'targeted spite'?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 20:27:26 GMT
So how does the fact that many repairs are done throughout the year now (under C&RT) rather than waiting for winter. Many lock repairs are carried out overniht now. The major collapse at Napton was managed by throwing staff at it until the winter stoppages. I think you may be over pessimistic, and seeing conspiracy where actually incompetence rules. But we'll have to agree to differ on that. Rog It's standard practice to use the word 'conspiracy ', and dare I say 'paranoia', to wright off alternative views. It's a cheap shot but interesting to see how it manifests itself. At the end of the day , our perspective is based on what we see and hear, in other words personal experience. It's also based on the output of any action (or inaction) we experience. Unfortunately so much of this 'experience' is based on social media and hearsay. Look at what has changed in the last few years. Look at the signage (which bears little relationship to law). Look at how enforcement has been used to target dissenters. Look at the wasted funds which have been used to bring dissenters to court (capturing the imagination of even those on CWF). Look at future 'initiatives' to track boaters like criminals. I think you will also find that any maintenance will centre around areas where there is a hire fleet. So at least you may be able to hire a boat in the future. You entirely miss the point I made. We are agreed on the issues with C&RT. We disagree that it is targeted spite merely against live aboard boaters. I suggested that others could more easily dismiss such a claim as conspiracy theory. If you intend accusing me of 'cheap shots' please ensure first of all that I have taken such a liberty. Rog
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 20:42:23 GMT
It's standard practice to use the word 'conspiracy ', and dare I say 'paranoia', to wright off alternative views. It's a cheap shot but interesting to see how it manifests itself. At the end of the day , our perspective is based on what we see and hear, in other words personal experience. It's also based on the output of any action (or inaction) we experience. Unfortunately so much of this 'experience' is based on social media and hearsay. Look at what has changed in the last few years. Look at the signage (which bears little relationship to law). Look at how enforcement has been used to target dissenters. Look at the wasted funds which have been used to bring dissenters to court (capturing the imagination of even those on CWF). Look at future 'initiatives' to track boaters like criminals. I think you will also find that any maintenance will centre around areas where there is a hire fleet. So at least you may be able to hire a boat in the future. You entirely miss the point I made. We are agreed on the issues with C&RT. We disagree that it is targeted spite merely against live aboard boaters. I suggested that others could more easily dismiss such a claim as conspiracy theory. If you intend accusing me of 'cheap shots' please ensure first of all that I have taken such a liberty. Rog Actually I didn't accuse you of anything, I was making a statement about how the word 'conspiracy' is used in place of coming up with a good argument. As is going all 'offended'. I am very interested as to why you believe there isn't an objective to remove live aboards from the system though.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 21:12:49 GMT
We all agree on the problems. We all agree on the improvements that are needed. The only point of contention is that you (Jenlyn and Kris) see these issues as being specifically aimed and directed at live aboard boaters. I see no evidence to support the assertion, merely your view, and I am happy for you to retain that prejudice. Like yourself (Jenlyn) I have experienced no targeted spite from C&RT, so am obliged to speak as I find. Rog Who mzentioned 'targeted spite'? Who mentioned maintenance in the same sentence as anti ccers? Some of this lot will drift off on anything to avoid having to answer on the subject matter itself. I mean this I think all came about from me making a sarcastic joke comment about marina boats. They are bloody nuts, yet feel talented enough to call me paranoid. 😂🤣😂🤣😂. Now they have set Nick budgie off as well.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 21:36:19 GMT
Who mzentioned 'targeted spite'? Who mentioned maintenance in the same sentence as anti ccers? Some of this lot will drift off on anything to avoid having to answer on the subject matter itself. I mean this I think all came about from me making a sarcastic joke comment about marina boats. They are bloody nuts, yet feel talented enough to call me paranoid. 😂🤣😂🤣😂. Now they have set Nick budgie off as well. TBH it is frustrating when people don't just concentrate on coming up with good arguments. I have a number of reasons in my earlier post as to why I believe live aboards have been targeted over the last few years. You know what? Maybe I am wrong, but convince me. Imagine oneself in a position where you made a life choice to sell what you have and buy a boat to live on (maybe this is difficult for some). Now look at the points I and others have made and honestly say you wouldn't feel targeted. As for the spite bit, there are some very logical (but I suspect wrong) reasons for getting rid of live aboatrds. As for CC'ers, well of course some are live aboards and some aren't. Unfortunately I have seen first hand how some people think they are all one and the same. They tend to be people who have little or no real experience.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 22:37:04 GMT
No, not at all, I am however getting my head around the fact that some just shut their eyes, stick their fingers in their ears and pretend nothing's wrong. All the while suggesting they love the way of life and the waterways, which is total bullshit of course. What they really mean is, I'm alright Jack, and as long as I can use the facility, fuck everyone else. Eventually of course, they will be the next targets, and I'll sit back and laugh my socks off 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂 Perhaps it is like the current social evil of "being offended on someone else's behalf"? Well it's good that at least some of us care about others who haven't the same 'confidence' to represent themselves as you do. In fact quite a lot of them aren't in a position to discuss things on an Internet forum I'm guessing you come over well in face to face meetings....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2017 23:48:18 GMT
I hate this topic.
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Post by naughtyfox on Jul 3, 2017 7:44:55 GMT
We were in a food shop recently and there was not one check-out person, ONLY those bloody awful self-service machines. So you see, big organisations can get their way. Here's a suggestion to help CRT: put a machine at each lock, £5 to use it. Gates do not open unless you pump your dosh in. £10 for widebeams, naturally!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 8:06:38 GMT
I will try one final time.
Kris (the op) identified that C&RT are conducting a war on live aboard boaters.
Live aboard boaters please note.....NOT continuous cruisers.
I have indicated that I would agree with criticism of C&RT's incompetence and poor management, and also on their misguided forays into the courts.
I see no evidence that C&RT's failings are a targeted attack on live aboard boaters. I even gave an example of where C&RT's incompetent checking system adversely affected a none live aboard boater.
I suggested that the danger with making such an assertion is that others may dismiss our collective legitimate complaints, as conspiracy theory and would not wish to offer anyone this easy option.
I did not say Jenlyn was a conspiracy theorist, or that anyone was making it up.
This is a discussion forum, and I politely gave an opposing view, which is allowed.
I am willing to be persuaded I am wrong, but that will require proof I'm afraid.
Rog
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Post by peterboat on Jul 3, 2017 8:27:36 GMT
I can see Kris and Steves point look at the amount of high cost court cases going on at the moment, plus a license review that nobody really wants and yet will cost us all dearly. I am a livaboard ok we have a house but prefer to be here we go out regular on the boat and have no problems or do we? Tinsley flight is a mess, the lock mechs whilst greased arnt oiled on the bits that are needed so they are oval and difficult to operate. The banks are overgrown, landing points cant be reached due to trees or the bottom to close to the top! Their are 3 full time lock keepers on there, oiling things isnt rocket science yet it dont happen so expensive replacement happens instead. Management arnt managing so direction for the workforce is lacking. So who complains the most about these things? probably livaboard CCers, or high milage boatowners out for a long season, so from CRTs point of view they are a problem that just may be costed of the waterways with changes nobody wants, but cant be arsed to stop! Start sending emails about things that you dont want or like, otherwise we will be gone.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 9:12:43 GMT
I will try one final time. Kris (the op) identified that C&RT are conducting a war on live aboard boaters. Live aboard boaters please note.....NOT continuous cruisers. I have indicated that I would agree with criticism of C&RT's incompetence and poor management, and also on their misguided forays into the courts. I see no evidence that C&RT's failings are a targeted attack on live aboard boaters. I even gave an example of where C&RT's incompetent checking system adversely affected a none live aboard boater. I suggested that the danger with making such an assertion is that others may dismiss our collective legitimate complaints, as conspiracy theory and would not wish to offer anyone this easy option. I did not say Jenlyn was a conspiracy theorist, or that anyone was making it up. This is a discussion forum, and I politely gave an opposing view, which is allowed. I am willing to be persuaded I am wrong, but that will require proof I'm afraid. Rog Many live aboards are CC'ers. They are the ones being targeted. I haven't seen you give an opposing view to any of the reasons I gave earlier why live aboards (who are CC'ers) believe they are being targeted. I'm sure live aboards in home moorings aren't being targeted although they will probably end up with a licence fee hike like the rest of us to pay for CRT's mismanagement and empire growth.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 9:16:26 GMT
I can see Kris and Steves point look at the amount of high cost court cases going on at the moment, plus a license review that nobody really wants and yet will cost us all dearly. I am a livaboard ok we have a house but prefer to be here we go out regular on the boat and have no problems or do we? Tinsley flight is a mess, the lock mechs whilst greased arnt oiled on the bits that are needed so they are oval and difficult to operate. The banks are overgrown, landing points cant be reached due to trees or the bottom to close to the top! Their are 3 full time lock keepers on there, oiling things isnt rocket science yet it dont happen so expensive replacement happens instead. Management arnt managing so direction for the workforce is lacking. So who complains the most about these things? probably livaboard CCers, or high milage boatowners out for a long season, so from CRTs point of view they are a problem that just may be costed of the waterways with changes nobody wants, but cant be arsed to stop! Start sending emails about things that you dont want or like, otherwise we will be gone. Don't forget hire boaters! Also, those who run hire fleets have a lot of clout with CRT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2017 9:55:07 GMT
For me when I use the erm livaboard boater, I mean anybody who lives on a boat. That could be in a marina, or on the cut fulltime. Not matter how many people denigh it's a reality and want to bury there heads this lifestyle is under pressure from the policies of crt. They don't really see people living on the canal as part of their future vision for the waterways. For various reasons they cannot come out and plainly state this is the objective. So they are going about achieving their objective in an underhand way. This is what a really disagree with. They should be open and have a public debate over the future of the waterways. If the majority of the population agreed with their aims. Then boaters would have to live with that. At the moment we have a small group of individuals with no goverment oversight deciding the future of an important historical national asset. In some ways it doesn't effect me, I'm not attached to living in the UK, so if it gets impossible to live on the water in this country. I'll move to a country where it's possible because I intend to continue living on a boat. Please read the post above and also the opening post. This post relates to live aboard boaters and the war being waged on them by C&RT, to use Kris's terms, and IS NOT about continuous cruisers. I will continue to contact C&RT to complain, and point out what I see as poor management, and also praise them where it is deserved. We need to unite as boaters to seek to put pressure on C&RT, and sticking to facts, rather than introducing perceptions, is the way to do it I believe. But I am often mistaken. I'll leave you to it. Rog
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