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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2017 8:01:36 GMT
adding to that post ...... I suspect that if it was held again now the vote would be even more overwhelming ..... the strikes called for in the next couple of days will be interesting The Spanish government has totally ballsed up the situation ......... I think Catalonian independence is now almost a certainty ...... the question is .... how much violence. Up till now the movement for Catalonian independence has been entirely non-violent on their side ..... the violence has been from the Madrid government. But when you occupy public buildings to commit an illegal act and refuse to come out, generally you know it's likely to end up in violence. It would be exactly the same in the UK with any other crime for which you refuse to "come quietly". Police will use force to get their way. Otherwise, what's the point in having them - Police: "Joe Bloggs, i arresting you on suspicion of killing this child." Joe:"Piss off. I'm busy trawling the internet for more victims". Police:"Ok fair enough, we'll come back when it's more convenient". Yea right! Whilst our police are far from perfect I do think they would have handled the situation with much more professionalism. In this day and age of social media and mobile phones that can stream events live you need to think extremly carefully about how you deal with situations like this. Just standing at a door kicking people because you don't have the skill to safely remove them, or hurling them downstairs out of obvious frustration shows the lack of wisdom involved in sending a semi militarised force in to deal with a protest by your population. It was reminiscent of the type of thing you would see in Russia, North Korea or China, not a supposedly democratic European country. |
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Post by JohnV on Oct 2, 2017 8:05:37 GMT
Your arguments are getting steadily more farfetched ....... that one was crappy ..... as you are well aware No more far fetched than saying 90% were in favour of independence. But that didn't stop you giving it credibility by repeating it. That is not what I said as you are well aware ..... I said that the results of the referendum, according to Sky, was 90%. Stop misquoting ..... you are perfectly capable of making a logical argument without it (if you want to) |
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Post by bodger on Oct 2, 2017 8:09:57 GMT
I haven't followed this in detail but it seems to me that it would have been wiser to warn people that the result of any vote would be irrelevant, and then for the police to have seized and destroyed the full ballot boxes.
As for small groups declaring independence, I was disappointed that the failure of the Scottish independence vote precluded the opportunity for the Shetlanders (mainly Viking descendants) from doing the same and taking much of 'Scotland's oil' away from the Scots.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 2, 2017 8:17:03 GMT
No more far fetched than saying 90% were in favour of independence. But that didn't stop you giving it credibility by repeating it. That is not what I said as you are well aware ..... I said that the results of the referendum, according to Sky, was 90%. Stop misquoting ..... you are perfectly capable of making a logical argument without it (if you want to) Yes I know, that is exactly what I said. Sky mentioned the far fetched 90% figure, you gave it credibility by repeating it without pointing out the likely flaws in the figure. |
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 2, 2017 8:23:46 GMT
But when you occupy public buildings to commit an illegal act and refuse to come out, generally you know it's likely to end up in violence. It would be exactly the same in the UK with any other crime for which you refuse to "come quietly". Police will use force to get their way. Otherwise, what's the point in having them - Police: "Joe Bloggs, i arresting you on suspicion of killing this child." Joe:"Piss off. I'm busy trawling the internet for more victims". Police:"Ok fair enough, we'll come back when it's more convenient". Yea right! Whilst our police are far from perfect I do think they would have handled the situation with much more professionalism. In this day and age of social media and mobile phones that can stream events live you need to think extremly carefully about how you deal with situations like this. Just standing at a door kicking people because you don't have the skill to safely remove them, or hurling them downstairs out of obvious frustration shows the lack of wisdom involved in sending a semi militarised force in to deal with a protest by your population. It was reminiscent of the type of thing you would see in Russia, North Korea or China, not a supposedly democratic European country. Miners' strike? |
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Post by JohnV on Oct 2, 2017 8:35:12 GMT
That is not what I said as you are well aware ..... I said that the results of the referendum, according to Sky, was 90%. Stop misquoting ..... you are perfectly capable of making a logical argument without it (if you want to) Yes I know, that is exactly what I said. Sky mentioned the far fetched 90% figure, you gave it credibility by repeating it without pointing out the likely flaws in the figure. How do you know it is a far fetched figure ? do you have any evidence that the results of the ballot were different ? Do you have any alternative evidence to the popularity of the desire for an independent Catalonia ? Or are you just taking up your normal position of Devils advocate ? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2017 8:41:34 GMT
Whilst our police are far from perfect I do think they would have handled the situation with much more professionalism. In this day and age of social media and mobile phones that can stream events live you need to think extremly carefully about how you deal with situations like this. Just standing at a door kicking people because you don't have the skill to safely remove them, or hurling them downstairs out of obvious frustration shows the lack of wisdom involved in sending a semi militarised force in to deal with a protest by your population. It was reminiscent of the type of thing you would see in Russia, North Korea or China, not a supposedly democratic European country. Miners' strike? That was decades ago Nick. When ever I watch 'fly on the wall' stuff I gain an impression that the planning for such events nowadays is much better thought through in the UK. Watching the Spanish Police in action yesyerday took me back to the days of Orgreave when the tactics seemed to be just break it up at any cost. |
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Post by peterboat on Oct 2, 2017 9:56:18 GMT
This comment I found interesting: "It was heartening that the Catalan police did not join in with the National police." Is this so? And what will happen to the Catalan Police? Smacks on hands or pushed over the cliff at Ronda? I also wonder about the British Police who so enjoyed smashing coal miners over the head in 1984-5 - have those individuals who used far too much force been identified? Ross you are trying to compare apples with oranges the miners committed lots of violence in the strike, all that was achieved by Scargil was the loss of the plans to build super collieries the man was an imbecile of the first order! My dad was a miner his pit was played out and worse was dangerous it was time for it to be closed |
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Post by peterboat on Oct 2, 2017 10:02:09 GMT
When I watched the news yesterday the verdict was that only 41% would have voted for independence, now whether that was a lie we will never know? but if it was the truth better to allow the poll and then have closure. Me I suspect that the 41% was put out by Madrid, and the real figure was far higher, so they decided to destroy the referendum before they were caught out with their lies.
What we have now is a time bomb which will destroy tourism that Spain desperately needs so expect Spain to collapse shortly
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 2, 2017 10:21:43 GMT
I see a close correlation with Brexit. Both Britain and Cataluna (there is no i, there's a squiggly thing on top of the n) have to pay to prop up their relatively poorer masters. They feel little or no cultural bond with their masters. So, they vote to sack their masters but those in power retaliate in immoral ways.
Good luck to my hombres, Cataluna libre!
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 2, 2017 10:29:30 GMT
Another thought; I think it's highly likely that the result of coshing the elderly over the head in order to maintain so called democratic status quo just might result in the birth of a new terrorist organisation.
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Post by JohnV on Oct 2, 2017 10:59:09 GMT
Another thought; I think it's highly likely that the result of coshing the elderly over the head in order to maintain so called democratic status quo just might result in the birth of a new terrorist organisation. It is not a good thought. At the moment the Independent Catalan movement holds the moral high ground ..... The Madrid government would probably like it to become violent as they could then use the shadow of the Spanish Civil War to mobilise public opinion in the rest of Spain ........ another unpleasant thought. It is worth remembering that the roots of Catalonia are different from Spain. They have a different language (not a dialect of Castilian but totally different roots) and the country only became part of Spain when it was on the losing side in the 18th century. |
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 2, 2017 11:18:33 GMT
Yes I know, that is exactly what I said. Sky mentioned the far fetched 90% figure, you gave it credibility by repeating it without pointing out the likely flaws in the figure. How do you know it is a far fetched figure ? do you have any evidence that the results of the ballot were different ? Do you have any alternative evidence to the popularity of the desire for an independent Catalonia ? Or are you just taking up your normal position of Devils advocate ? Anybody with some vague degree of common sense would realise that such a figure coming from such a shambolic "referendum" which most people have boycotted, provided by the radicals who want independence, is bound to be unreliable. Surely you are not so gullible? |
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Post by Graham on Oct 2, 2017 12:08:53 GMT
How do you know it is a far fetched figure ? do you have any evidence that the results of the ballot were different ? Do you have any alternative evidence to the popularity of the desire for an independent Catalonia ? Or are you just taking up your normal position of Devils advocate ? Anybody with some vague degree of common sense would realise that such a figure coming from such a shambolic "referendum" which most people have boycotted, provided by the radicals who want independence, is bound to be unreliable. Surely you are not so gullible? You know nick you can be very insulting. I expect everyone posting on this knows exactly how reliable or unreliable the result is. I t does show there is an appetite for independence to be investigated. The area is one of the richest in Spain and could stand on its own feet. The interesting thing is what effect that independence would have economically on the rest of Spain with the loss of taxes etc. Perhaps that has more to do with the Spanish governments position that anything else. I suspect in time they will become independent it is just a matter of how and how long. |
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Post by JohnV on Oct 2, 2017 13:12:30 GMT
How do you know it is a far fetched figure ? do you have any evidence that the results of the ballot were different ? Do you have any alternative evidence to the popularity of the desire for an independent Catalonia ? Or are you just taking up your normal position of Devils advocate ? Anybody with some vague degree of common sense would realise that such a figure coming from such a shambolic "referendum" which most people have boycotted, provided by the radicals who want independence, is bound to be unreliable. Surely you are not so gullible? So, in fact you have no evidence to the contrary. I suggest you do some research into the last few years of the politics of the region. Many years ago your description of a few radicals might have been a reasonable view, however the cynical quashing of the original agreement between the Catalan government and the Madrid government of an autonomous region, by the judicial system of the state, began the change. Many polls by various organisations (including Spanish as opposed to Catalan organisations), over the last ten years plot a steady progression. Originally a small minority was in favour of independence, a small minority in favour of the status quo and the majority being in favour of a looser connection in the form of an autonomous region status. This was offered to them then retracted. Since then the figures have steadily progressed to a majority in favour of independence and only rump minorities in favour of the status quo or the autonomous region status. The Catalans have learned that agreements with the central government cannot be trusted. |
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