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Post by phil70 on Oct 1, 2017 18:50:23 GMT
Have been following Sky news all day to see how it plays out. Couldn't believe the level of violence coming from the Police and just because the Catalans held a referendum. Democracy seems to have died in Spain Phil
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 1, 2017 18:59:45 GMT
Democracy is not about a group of fanatics getting together to overthrow the rightful constitutionally-supported government. That is anarchy. If the population of some English county got together and tried to declare independence from the UK you would condemn them as a bunch of loonies.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 19:08:53 GMT
Democracy is not about a group of fanatics getting together to overthrow the rightful constitutionally-supported government. That is anarchy. If the population of some English county got together and tried to declare independence from the UK you would condemn them as a bunch of loonies. I've never considered the Scots a bunch of loonies... (I know they are not an English county...). It is not anarchy, it is an attempt at a democratic revolution. From a couple of videos I have watched the police do seem to have caused the violence - whether that was needed or not depends on your political viewpoint.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 1, 2017 19:27:17 GMT
Democracy is not about a group of fanatics getting together to overthrow the rightful constitutionally-supported government. That is anarchy. If the population of some English county got together and tried to declare independence from the UK you would condemn them as a bunch of loonies. I've never considered the Scots a bunch of loonies... (I know they are not an English county...). It is not anarchy, it is an attempt at a democratic revolution. From a couple of videos I have watched the police do seem to have caused the violence - whether that was needed or not depends on your political viewpoint. The majority of Scots aren't a bunch of loonies, but the minority of SNP nationalist fanatics are. As to the violence, hard to know really as one can't take a tiny snapshot as put on the telly, and extrapolate. But when a large chunk of the population are breaking the law, what would you expect the police to do about it? Nothing?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 19:34:44 GMT
I've never considered the Scots a bunch of loonies... (I know they are not an English county...). It is not anarchy, it is an attempt at a democratic revolution. From a couple of videos I have watched the police do seem to have caused the violence - whether that was needed or not depends on your political viewpoint. But when a large chunk of the population are breaking the law, what would you expect the police to do about it? Nothing? Depends on the law being broken. In this case I would expect them to try to uphold the law but to only use force if violence occurs. When a large chunk of the population just want to put a tick on a ballot paper it shouldn't be up to police to stop them.
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Post by Graham on Oct 1, 2017 19:39:38 GMT
I think that possibly in the long term the Spanish Government have made a mistake. The way things appear to have gone is going to push the don'ts over to the independence side and those who might have voted no and might have carried the day have stayed at home. I can see this getting nasty and maybe Euskadi Ta Askatasuna reactivating in a big way. Time will tell unfortunately.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 1, 2017 19:57:46 GMT
But when a large chunk of the population are breaking the law, what would you expect the police to do about it? Nothing? Depends on the law being broken. In this case I would expect them to try to uphold the law but to only use force if violence occurs. When a large chunk of the population just want to put a tick on a ballot paper it shouldn't be up to police to stop them. As I understand it, the proposed referendum was considered to be constitutionally unlawful by the relevant courts. The police are therefore entitled - no, required - to prevent such unlawful activity. Democracy is a strange thing that, when analysed dispassionately, doesn't really make sense. It only makes sense if it is applied within some well defined boundary such as a country. But it doesn't work if a small group of people decide that it's their democratic right to have a vote to do something contrary to the democratic wishes of the larger group. For example, if me and my mates decided to have a referendum to say that we were exempt from speed limits, and we won that referendum, would it be reasonable to expect that speed limits no longer applied to us?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 20:00:42 GMT
Depends on the law being broken. In this case I would expect them to try to uphold the law but to only use force if violence occurs. When a large chunk of the population just want to put a tick on a ballot paper it shouldn't be up to police to stop them. As I understand it, the proposed referendum was considered to be constitutionally unlawful by the relevant courts. The police are therefore entitled - no, required - to prevent such unlawful activity. Democracy is a strange thing that, when analysed dispassionately, doesn't really make sense. It only makes sense if it is applied within some well defined boundary such as a country. But it doesn't work if a small group of people decide that it's their democratic right to have a vote to do something contrary to the democratic wishes of the larger group. For example, if me and my mates decided to have a referendum to say that we were exempt from speed limits, and we won that referendum, would it be reasonable to expect that speed limits no longer applied to us? But this isn't about a small group of people - that is the difference in my opinion.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 1, 2017 20:03:19 GMT
I think that possibly in the long term the Spanish Government have made a mistake. The way things appear to have gone is going to push the don'ts over to the independence side and those who might have voted no and might have carried the day have stayed at home. I can see this getting nasty and maybe Euskadi Ta Askatasuna reactivating in a big way. Time will tell unfortunately. Quite possibly, but that is a different point. It's the same with Scotland - should Westminster block an "unofficial" independence referendum thus stoking anti-English feeling, or allow it but ignore the result (thus stoking anti-English feeling). It's a no-win. Fortunately the bubble of the rabid nationalists has to some extent burst for the time being, so we don't have to decided which is the least worst tactic! I suppose Brexit is a similar issue - currently it seems that the unelected beurocrats of Europe want to punish UK for daring to leave their gang, send a warning message to any other countries thinking of doing the same, but the effect of Mr Barniere's refusal to progress talks onto trade has made me quite glad that we've bitten the bullet and told the EU to piss off. I was more ambivalent before.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 1, 2017 20:04:27 GMT
As I understand it, the proposed referendum was considered to be constitutionally unlawful by the relevant courts. The police are therefore entitled - no, required - to prevent such unlawful activity. Democracy is a strange thing that, when analysed dispassionately, doesn't really make sense. It only makes sense if it is applied within some well defined boundary such as a country. But it doesn't work if a small group of people decide that it's their democratic right to have a vote to do something contrary to the democratic wishes of the larger group. For example, if me and my mates decided to have a referendum to say that we were exempt from speed limits, and we won that referendum, would it be reasonable to expect that speed limits no longer applied to us? But this isn't about a small group of people - that is the difference in my opinion. But that is just a matter of degree. Small, in comparison to the entire population of Spain. Large, in comparison to the number of frequent posters on TB.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 20:16:19 GMT
But this isn't about a small group of people - that is the difference in my opinion. But that is just a matter of degree. Small, in comparison to the entire population of Spain. Large, in comparison to the number of frequent posters on TB. The population of Scotland is smaller than the population of London - neither gets put into a small group of people in my mind.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 1, 2017 20:56:44 GMT
But that is just a matter of degree. Small, in comparison to the entire population of Spain. Large, in comparison to the number of frequent posters on TB. The population of Scotland is smaller than the population of London - neither gets put into a small group of people in my mind. That's fine - but as I said, it's a matter of degree and opinion, so don't be surprised if someone else considers the population of Catalonia to be a small group compared to the population of Spain. There are no absolutes, no "right answers" for this sort of thing.
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Post by Graham on Oct 1, 2017 21:09:07 GMT
Think the population of Catalina is about the same as Scotland and land mass is about the same as Belgium.
The attitude is similar to the EU's behaviour to the UK.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2017 21:12:01 GMT
I seriously doubt dragging people out of polling stations by their hair and kicking people sitting on the floor with heavy boots is going to reduce the desire of those who seek independence to achieve it.
Sending those thugs in to try and stop that election was a serious miscalculation on the part of the Spanish govt.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 1, 2017 21:18:39 GMT
Think the population of Catalina is about the same as Scotland and land mass is about the same as Belgium. The attitude is similar to the EU's behaviour to the UK. Yes the sizes are certainly comparable. But I see the situation as different. In the case of UK, rightly or wrongly the entire population democratically decided to leave the EU. The EU should accept that, but vested interests within the EU "halls of power" resent it as it's a challenge to their very existence and power base, hence the desire to punish and deter. In the case of Scotland and Catalonia, a relatively small subset of the nation wants to break away (or not quite, in the case of Scotland) even though they have been part of the bigger group (UK or Spain) for hundreds of years. Anyway, in my view nationism/separatism has been shown over the centuries always to be a cause of strife. For that reason I wanted us to stay in the EU. But balanced by my resentment for the unelected and unaccountable nature of the EU Commision who seemingly want to "invade" the UK by stealth - bearing in mind that when they tried doing it by force they lost! Hence my ambivalence. I can see good and bad points on both sides and it is just a matter of how much weight one puts on each of those points.
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