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Post by macwolfelee on Jun 7, 2016 11:49:05 GMT
I've taken the liberty of adding some numbers to your paragraphs above as they raise different issues. 1) You are decrying globalization, but refuse to accept the part that the EU plays in globalization. By making the government more removed and less controlled by the people it affects, the politicians, who are all paid-for whores of the 1%, are able to do the wishes of the corporate masters with little fear of people like you and me. And whilst a British soldier might hesitate to fire upon another British person in the event that insurrection is necessary, a Romanian soldier in a multi-national EU Army would probably have no such qualms. You really should study what is happening in the United States, we are your future if you remain in the EU, and it ain't pretty here. 2) This statement has no basis in fact. Wealth is not a finite commodity that has to shared by all on earth. Wealth can be created, as in extracting minerals from the ground, or making things that people want to money. Money is just a convenient accounting method. Before money, gold determined wealth; before that it was cattle. Real estate has always been a factor in wealth. 3) You're all over the place in 3). Nations break and re-negotiate treaties all the time. People worldwide are finally catching on to the fact that the so-called "Fair Trade Agreements" that our governments have been foisting on us for the last 40 years are actually nothing more than "Corporate Rights and Privileges Agreements" that benefit no one except the multi-national corporations that write the treaties and then profit from them. The idea that the UK wouldn't be trusted after a Brexit is absurd. Just exactly who would do all of the "not trusting"? Other than Europe, few people in the world even know about Brexit, let alone care. I dare say that a Brexit would serve notice on the EU governance that they have gone too far with their policies, and hopefully encourage some changes that benefit the common folks more than the 1%. So the Brexit would a slap in the face to the powers that be in Europe, and that would be good for all Europeans, not bad. A Brexit could also facilitate a Grexit, and the EU just might come up with some solutions other than austerity for the Greeks in order to keep them in the EU. If not, the Greeks can leave too. No one is going to revile the UK, or its people, if you leave. As far as global influence goes, wtf does that have to do with anything and why do you care if the UK has global influence or not? Global influence in the 21st century has so far meant becoming a co-sponsor of the USA's misbegotten and illegal MIC profit centers, aka wars and military invasions of defenseless countries. Is that what you want for your grandchildren? You do understand, don't you, that the wars your desire for global influence require cost British taxpayers billions upon billions of pounds, money that could be spent on infrastructure or pensions or education - there are all kind of things that money is better spent on than wars. Good idea numbering points. I'll do it for yours. Only trouble is they are sometimes converted to weird emoticons.
1. I'm not decrying globalisation. How did you get that idea? I implied it was inevitable, and said why. Romanian soldiers shooting Brits would be less likely, not more, if there was a United Europe, and an integrated army, because revolution would be less likely. I'm not sure what I should be looking at in the USA.
2. You are absolutely accurate here, but for the past 40 years this has not been what is happening. Ever since the gold standard was abandoned, 'available wealth' has had no relation to these things, but vast expansion of credit has created equally vast debts which can now never be paid back. The world economic situation is teetering on the brink of disaster, sustained only by ever greater debt, which cannot last indefinitely. Unprecedentedly low interest rates are a symptom of this.
3. Nations do not break treaties 'all the time'. Those that do are no longer trusted. The UK is trusted because generally speaking it does not renegue on treaties (the oldest treaty in the world still in force and never broken is between England and Portugal - before the UK existed) Angela Merkel has actually said that the UK would be given a hard time if we left the EU, and it is obvious to me that we would be blamed (and already are) for the rise of nationalistic movements in several EU countries. Few people in the world know about Brexit? You must be joking. It is making headlines, if not in remotest Patagonia, then certainly in all economically important countries.
The global influence I'm talking about is the power to stop wars, not start them. A powerful Europe might just have the influence to put the brake on American gung-ho power mania. The rest of Europe have certainly been less enthusiastic about getting involved in this sort of thing than we have so far - I'm all for making us less of a lapdog of the US, which our semi-separation from the rest of Europe has allowed so far. And a breakup of the EU will just leave Russia and the USA facing each other, with no powerful third force to influence things. I lived right through the Cold War, which nearly became hot several times, and I don't want to see that again. Europe was divided then, and looked on helplessly.
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Post by peterboat on Jun 7, 2016 11:55:02 GMT
Its funny I was in the Army in the cold war never bothered me why? because war is for gain and because of the nuclear option their is no gain
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 7, 2016 12:20:10 GMT
Its funny I was in the Army in the cold war never bothered me why? because war is for gain and because of the nuclear option their is no gain To be honest, I think we are drawing closer towards hostilities with Russia than we ever were in the cold war days. Russia has watched the eu expand into the Baltic States, now it is watching as the eu makes advances towards Turkey, the eu is already eyeing up Ukraine and I think that will prove to be the last straw for Moscow.
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Post by macwolfelee on Jun 7, 2016 12:37:50 GMT
Its funny I was in the Army in the cold war never bothered me why? because war is for gain and because of the nuclear option their is no gain To be honest, I think we are drawing closer towards hostilities with Russia than we ever were in the cold war days. Russia has watched the eu expand into the Baltic States, now it is watching as the eu makes advances towards Turkey, the eu is already eyeing up Ukraine and I think that will prove to be the last straw for Moscow. The EU did not 'expand into the Baltic States', is not 'making advances towards Turkey' and is not 'eyeing up Ukraine'. All of these states were and are desperate to be part of the EU because they perceive it as a economically a Good Thing. And they are right. No wonder Russia doesn't like it. Personally I don't think it would be politic to expand the EU further at the moment, and the EU thinks the same. But it is essential that the EU as it is presents a united front to give the dictator Putin pause for thought. The present referendum is not helping, and a Brexit is what Putin wants. He has implied so.
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Post by PaulG2 on Jun 7, 2016 13:00:11 GMT
I've taken the liberty of adding some numbers to your paragraphs above as they raise different issues. 1) You are decrying globalization, but refuse to accept the part that the EU plays in globalization. By making the government more removed and less controlled by the people it affects, the politicians, who are all paid-for whores of the 1%, are able to do the wishes of the corporate masters with little fear of people like you and me. And whilst a British soldier might hesitate to fire upon another British person in the event that insurrection is necessary, a Romanian soldier in a multi-national EU Army would probably have no such qualms. You really should study what is happening in the United States, we are your future if you remain in the EU, and it ain't pretty here. 2) This statement has no basis in fact. Wealth is not a finite commodity that has to shared by all on earth. Wealth can be created, as in extracting minerals from the ground, or making things that people want to money. Money is just a convenient accounting method. Before money, gold determined wealth; before that it was cattle. Real estate has always been a factor in wealth. 3) You're all over the place in 3). Nations break and re-negotiate treaties all the time. People worldwide are finally catching on to the fact that the so-called "Fair Trade Agreements" that our governments have been foisting on us for the last 40 years are actually nothing more than "Corporate Rights and Privileges Agreements" that benefit no one except the multi-national corporations that write the treaties and then profit from them. The idea that the UK wouldn't be trusted after a Brexit is absurd. Just exactly who would do all of the "not trusting"? Other than Europe, few people in the world even know about Brexit, let alone care. I dare say that a Brexit would serve notice on the EU governance that they have gone too far with their policies, and hopefully encourage some changes that benefit the common folks more than the 1%. So the Brexit would a slap in the face to the powers that be in Europe, and that would be good for all Europeans, not bad. A Brexit could also facilitate a Grexit, and the EU just might come up with some solutions other than austerity for the Greeks in order to keep them in the EU. If not, the Greeks can leave too. No one is going to revile the UK, or its people, if you leave. As far as global influence goes, wtf does that have to do with anything and why do you care if the UK has global influence or not? Global influence in the 21st century has so far meant becoming a co-sponsor of the USA's misbegotten and illegal MIC profit centers, aka wars and military invasions of defenseless countries. Is that what you want for your grandchildren? You do understand, don't you, that the wars your desire for global influence require cost British taxpayers billions upon billions of pounds, money that could be spent on infrastructure or pensions or education - there are all kind of things that money is better spent on than wars. Good idea numbering points. I'll do it for yours. Only trouble is they are sometimes converted to weird emoticons.
1. I'm not decrying globalisation. How did you get that idea? I implied it was inevitable, and said why. Romanian soldiers shooting Brits would be less likely, not more, if there was a United Europe, and an integrated army, because revolution would be less likely. I'm not sure what I should be looking at in the USA.
2. You are absolutely accurate here, but for the past 40 years this has not been what is happening. Ever since the gold standard was abandoned, 'available wealth' has had no relation to these things, but vast expansion of credit has created equally vast debts which can now never be paid back. The world economic situation is teetering on the brink of disaster, sustained only by ever greater debt, which cannot last indefinitely. Unprecedentedly low interest rates are a symptom of this.
3. Nations do not break treaties 'all the time'. Those that do are no longer trusted. The UK is trusted because generally speaking it does not renegue on treaties (the oldest treaty in the world still in force and never broken is between England and Portugal - before the UK existed) Angela Merkel has actually said that the UK would be given a hard time if we left the EU, and it is obvious to me that we would be blamed (and already are) for the rise of nationalistic movements in several EU countries. Few people in the world know about Brexit? You must be joking. It is making headlines, if not in remotest Patagonia, then certainly in all economically important countries.
The global influence I'm talking about is the power to stop wars, not start them. A powerful Europe might just have the influence to put the brake on American gung-ho power mania. The rest of Europe have certainly been less enthusiastic about getting involved in this sort of thing than we have so far - I'm all for making us less of a lapdog of the US, which our semi-separation from the rest of Europe has allowed so far. And a breakup of the EU will just leave Russia and the USA facing each other, with no powerful third force to influence things. I lived right through the Cold War, which nearly became hot several times, and I don't want to see that again. Europe was divided then, and looked on helplessly.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. We have both stated our case and now we are going in circles. Isn't it amazing how we were able to have a disagreement and debate without moderation and without slash and burn tactics?
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Post by peterboat on Jun 7, 2016 17:23:15 GMT
Its funny I was in the Army in the cold war never bothered me why? because war is for gain and because of the nuclear option their is no gain To be honest, I think we are drawing closer towards hostilities with Russia than we ever were in the cold war days. Russia has watched the eu expand into the Baltic States, now it is watching as the eu makes advances towards Turkey, the eu is already eyeing up Ukraine and I think that will prove to be the last straw for Moscow. Completely agree with you Star the EU did make advances to Ukraine I know you traveled there extensively, I used to have a teacher lady friend who lived in the Ukraine she was a Russian speaker she was unhappy with things because it was unsettling the country. How right she was lost all contact with her which was a shame as she was a lovely lady.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 7, 2016 17:47:15 GMT
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Post by JohnV on Jun 7, 2016 21:07:27 GMT
Putin is a thoroughly nasty piece of work but that certainly doesn't make the EU "good"
With someone like that you watch them like a hawk and make sure they know that if they push you will resist firmly.
You don't start pushing first
Russia's history makes for paranoia among it's leaders, with plenty of justification, fueling it by inflammatory action is a recipe for disaster
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Post by smileypete on Jun 7, 2016 22:18:52 GMT
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 7, 2016 22:32:00 GMT
Vladimir Putin enjoys support from the electorate that David Cameron could only dream of. As George Orwell said, "Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac."
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Post by zigspider on Jun 8, 2016 0:38:22 GMT
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 8, 2016 8:55:19 GMT
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Post by peterboat on Jun 8, 2016 9:02:36 GMT
Maybe Russia should do the same in Cuba wonder what the reaction would be then?
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 8, 2016 18:46:54 GMT
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2016 13:17:39 GMT
I see the BBC are still IN biased when you look at the majority of their headlines. So Blair and Major (whoever he was) say an exit will split the UK. Why they expect the public to respect antyhing they say is beyond me.
If we end up staying in, we will continue to be controlled by fools like this. We would be fools to let them get away with it.
We need politicions to act on behalf of the people, not corporate barons who treat everyone as worker ants.
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