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Post by JohnV on Apr 9, 2016 10:18:10 GMT
i'll think about that before |I answer
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Post by JohnV on Apr 9, 2016 11:19:31 GMT
Why I support democracy....Hmmmmmm!
1/ I believe it can (when working at it's best) be the best system to improve the condition of living for the majority of the population without causing oppression of minorities.
2/ That it is a flexible enough system to cope with most unexpected pressures without collapsing
3/ That it's flexibility allows enterprise and innovation to succeed
4/ that it suits bloody minded people like myself that don't like being labelled and stuck in the round hole
5/ that it's inertia (or as CDS puts it "the resistance") prevents it charging too far down an extremist path before swaying back the opposite way
Yeah but tell me its downsides and how we address them ? And what about its imposition on the countries I have listed,must it all ways come with capitalism and are the two indivisible? Ok I've had a little time to think this one out a bit......downsides of Democracy.....
I have seen it suggested that democracy is legalised mob rule I have seen it described as the selection of the incompetent by the stupid (In our family this is referred to as "Margaret's rule") A member of her party complained to her about the election of another councillor "The man is an Idiot and so is anyone who voted for him" Margaret's reply "Every group is entitled to representation" with all it's faults it at least avoids the worse excesses of totalitarian regimes.
All the other systems are based on "XXXX knows best" and you should all do as you are told. When people are put in permanent charge of other people they seem to develop the opinion that they are smarter/more important/worth more than anyone else and many then seem to then develop a total disregard for anyone else. History has many examples of this producing the most horrendous results. At least in a democracy they are usually looking over their shoulder and stay in line and if not can usually be got rid of, or at least sidelined. One of the weaknesses (it seems to me) of democracy is that it works best with small numbers (This is one of the reasons I am anti EU) Once the society gets too large, the upper echelons are so remote from the general population that once they are in position, the time taken to push them out, gives the monolithic inertia of a totalitarian state.
As regards top down implementation of the system.....I don't know, perhaps it takes a couple of generations of free thinking before it really takes root
maybe there is some historical reason
I think you have to accept whatever system you have, some will get the shitty end of the stick.
Sumus semper in excretum sed alta variat
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 14:03:21 GMT
Johnv,I am attempting to get you to drill down into a complex issue that I want to say from the outset I am on shaky ground with and respectfully you look shakier than me. What is the point of foisting democratic ideals on countries that have no tradition of democracy nor want it. What have we achieved with this?what flourishing democracies have we left behind? NONE! Does Democracy come hand in hand with capitalism and which comes first? Does Capitalism simply utilise Democracy as a tool to destabilise countries governments to create,influence or exploit markets? I believe that history has shown they do.
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Post by JohnV on Apr 9, 2016 15:10:19 GMT
Johnv,I am attempting to get you to drill down into a complex issue that I want to say from the outset I am on shaky ground with and respectfully you look shakier than me. What is the point of foisting democratic ideals on countries that have no tradition of democracy nor want it. What have we achieved with this?what flourishing democracies have we left behind? NONE! Does Democracy come hand in hand with capitalism and which comes first? Does Capitalism simply utilise Democracy as a tool to destabilise countries governments to create,influence or exploit markets? I believe that history has shown they do. I Hate sodding computers !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have just finished writing a long carefully thought out reply to your post
and it has bloody disappeared !!!!! I don't know what I pressed but it has bloody gone and to say I'm pissed is an understatement........it took me bloody ages !!!!
I'll have to do it again when my blood pressure has gone back to normal.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2016 15:23:40 GMT
Johnv,I am attempting to get you to drill down into a complex issue that I want to say from the outset I am on shaky ground with and respectfully you look shakier than me. What is the point of foisting democratic ideals on countries that have no tradition of democracy nor want it. What have we achieved with this?what flourishing democracies have we left behind? NONE! Does Democracy come hand in hand with capitalism and which comes first? Does Capitalism simply utilise Democracy as a tool to destabilise countries governments to create,influence or exploit markets? I believe that history has shown they do. I Hate sodding computers !!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have just finished writing a long carefully thought out reply to your post
and it has bloody disappeared !!!!! I don't know what I pressed but it has bloody gone and to say I'm pissed is an understatement........it took me bloody ages !!!!
I'll have to do it again when my blood pressure has gone back to normal.
Its been good today John,some great decent people on here and boaters as well.Have a beer and come back to it.
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Post by PaulG2 on Apr 17, 2016 2:28:23 GMT
Johnv,I am attempting to get you to drill down into a complex issue that I want to say from the outset I am on shaky ground with and respectfully you look shakier than me. What is the point of foisting democratic ideals on countries that have no tradition of democracy nor want it. What have we achieved with this?what flourishing democracies have we left behind? NONE! Does Democracy come hand in hand with capitalism and which comes first? Does Capitalism simply utilise Democracy as a tool to destabilise countries governments to create,influence or exploit markets? I believe that history has shown they do. Even as a young lad I wondered why our government felt that we had the right to "impose" democracy on people who didn't want it. At the time it seemed to me that government made little difference to the farmer whose family had farmed the same rice paddy for generations, and who would seldom venture further than the local village. I couldn't see where the people of Vietnam had ever expressed any real desire to be democratic, and I'm sure democracy was never important enough to them to invite the genocidal hell we reigned down on them. The same thing goes for the people of the Middle East. There are cultures there that predate western cultures by thousands of years, yet never in all those millennium have the people there ever striven for democracy. It would do all of us in the West well to maybe consider that we really don't know what is best for everyone in the world.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 17, 2016 7:47:06 GMT
What was that I heard on the radio in the year 2002 when the USA was dropping 'aid' packages out of planes onto Afghanistan and the natives are opening them and thinking "Peanut butter and Hersheys bars - wtf??!!". Iraq and Afghanistan are the innocent victims. It was Saudi Arabians who brought terror to the streets of New York in 2001. The mates of the Bushes. "Democracy". Hollow laugh.
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Post by macwolfelee on Apr 17, 2016 18:02:52 GMT
What is the point of foisting democratic ideals on countries that have no tradition of democracy nor want it. What have we achieved with this?what flourishing democracies have we left behind? NONE! Well, Australia, India, New Zealand, and Canada spring immediately to mind, but I'm sure I could come up some more if I gave it the time but I'm not going to.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 19:28:14 GMT
What is the point of foisting democratic ideals on countries that have no tradition of democracy nor want it. What have we achieved with this?what flourishing democracies have we left behind? NONE! Well, Australia, India, New Zealand, and Canada spring immediately to mind, but I'm sure I could come up some more if I gave it the time but I'm not going to. We never foisted democracy on any of these countries,India we robbed,illegally taxed massacred and exploited,Australia we colonised,stole and plundered,we stripped the indigenous Aborigines of any rights whatsoever,likewise New Zealand and Canada we colonised also.Something totally different. You have just attempted to say the British Empire,built on theft,murder and slavery had the added benefit of installing democracy as well. Amazing really when your prepared to sell us down the river for the well being of countries such as Romania in your desire to be in Europe.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 17, 2016 19:31:59 GMT
Don't forget Greece! Will they ever be paying back our Zillions? Or just be asking for more?
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Post by JohnV on Apr 18, 2016 8:03:28 GMT
Don't forget Greece! Will they ever be paying back our Zillions? Or just be asking for more? Yeah !!!! and look back in time and democracy is all their fault anyway !!!! Attachment Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2016 9:25:01 GMT
Don't forget Greece! Will they ever be paying back our Zillions? Or just be asking for more? Yeah !!!! and look back in time and democracy is all their fault anyway !!!!
Said it before John, A BENEVOLENT DICTATORSHIP WITH THE OCCASIONAL ASSASINATION is whats required to keep the bastards on their toes.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2016 10:14:57 GMT
Well big wins for Clinton and Trump in New York yesterday,I believe now Sanders is finished and you would think we are guaranteed a Clinton V Trump contest for the presidency. Trump remains the most intriguing I think,will the Republican Party give him their nomination? What we need now is some Statesman Like quotes,opinions and behaviour the question being Is that beyond him?
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Post by JohnV on Apr 20, 2016 10:17:40 GMT
probably
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Post by PaulG2 on Apr 20, 2016 15:29:52 GMT
Well big wins for Clinton and Trump in New York yesterday,I believe now Sanders is finished and you would think we are guaranteed a Clinton V Trump contest for the presidency. Trump remains the most intriguing I think,will the Republican Party give him their nomination? What we need now is some Statesman Like quotes,opinions and behaviour the question being Is that beyond him? The media bias against Bernie Sanders is atrocious, and you, sir, have fallen for their narrative. Prior to losing New York, Bernie Sanders won nine primaries/caucuses in a row, some with landslide wins, and the silence from the media was deafening. Hillary finally pulls off a narrow victory in New York and all of a sudden Bernie is finished. What a crock of shit! One of the ways that the media distorts this race is by awarding almost all of the "super delegates" to HRC. Super delegates are delegates who aren't bound to vote for anyone, they can vote for whomever they please. At the start of this race, the media decided to award 500+ of the 540 super delegates to HRC; 38 of those went to Bernie. Giving Hillary a 500+ imaginary lead in the delegate counts makes it look like she has a much bigger lead than she actually has. However, despite what the media says, come convention (nomination) time, those super delegates are free to vote for either candidate, and those folks will be prone to vote for the candidate they think will win. Their loyalty is to the party, not to HRC. The actual delegate count in the democratic primary right now is HRC 1,428 - Bernie Sanders 1,151. There are 1,646 Delegates still available. It takes 2,383 delegates to win the nomination. Many of the early primaries were in southern states, where Hillary has a distinct advantage over Bernie. The upcoming primaries are in states that favor Bernie, so expect to see HRC's lead diminish rapidly. The super delegates are the wild card in this election. Super delegates tend to be elected officials, like congress members, so they are answerable to the voters. The democratic establishment wants HRC to be the candidate; the people want Bernie Sanders. It will be interesting to see who prevails. One thing that is almost for certain is that the democratic candidate will almost certainly be our next president. Bernie Sanders would be good for the US, and for the world. HRC would be just more of the same as we are seeing now. The democratic primary race is, in fact, neck and neck, and momentum is on Bernie's side right now.
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