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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 13:25:18 GMT
Quite an unusual situation really. And not strictly legal, in my understanding of the BW houseboat legislation [though I have not examined it in depth - Simon Robbins is the expert on this]. nabo.org.uk/files/nabo-news/nn-2011/1.pdf pages 18,19 CaRT are doing their usual thing of re-interpreting the provisions of the 1971 Act to remove what they would see as onerous [to then] obligation attaching to houseboat certificates. They are continuing the BW run-down of numbers issued, but until they have rid themselves of them entirely, they wish to reduce the impact on them of needing to provide security of tenure. Security of tenure is one thing (I don't personally believe that exist when living on a boat unless you own the land) but also the situation where private individuals sell the boat for an enormous premium due to assignable mooring. This locks out other potential customers resulting in a closed shop and surely that money should be for CRT? Or the mooring fees are too cheap...
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Post by kris on Mar 20, 2018 14:00:50 GMT
And not strictly legal, in my understanding of the BW houseboat legislation [though I have not examined it in depth - Simon Robbins is the expert on this]. nabo.org.uk/files/nabo-news/nn-2011/1.pdf pages 18,19 CaRT are doing their usual thing of re-interpreting the provisions of the 1971 Act to remove what they would see as onerous [to then] obligation attaching to houseboat certificates. They are continuing the BW run-down of numbers issued, but until they have rid themselves of them entirely, they wish to reduce the impact on them of needing to provide security of tenure. Security of tenure is one thing (I don't personally believe that exist when living on a boat unless you own the land) but also the situation where private individuals sell the boat for an enormous premium due to assignable mooring. This locks out other potential customers resulting in a closed shop and surely that money should be for CRT? Or the mooring fees are too cheap... how much do you think the moorings worth. In my experience (which is limited.) Crt start the auction at the "going rate" so anything extra good be classed as popularity surcharge. Was the boat sold at an extortionate rate because of the mooring?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 14:32:06 GMT
Yes the boat was sold at an extortionate rate. Over £100k for a 17 year old Evans and son steel wide beam 72x12 with no engine. Fitted out (well done) as a floating apartment reliant on the mooring. No engine, no on board water system (direct connection which is illegal in this circumstance ) no 12v light system / charging arrangements . Hardware-wise its probably a £60k boat. Sold for double that with a nontransferable mooring.
The mooring is obviously worth what people are prepared to pay.
As I said its an odd one and as it will probably be the only residential mooring available anywhere in central London (without having to buy a boat as well) it could be a bit of a silly situation when it comes on the waterside mooring list, which I have been informed in an email from crt is what will happen. I checked this in advance and have confirmation from mooring manager.
The premium is simply to provide availability of the mooring in an open auction. Not to give the right to continue the mooring contract at the existing rate. Anyone else with a 70ft wide beam or any other boat which can fit under the bridges and is up to 72x13ft6x3ft can bid on it...
You make a good point about how much the mooring is "worth" I noticed that the (narrow boats only) moorings at Actons lock (groovy hackney dickheads everywhere) were originally £9k p.a. - there is now one on the WM site at a fixed £12.5k.
So if CRT decided to stick a high reserve on my neighbours mooring (banglatown so less attractive than hackney but at least its a wide mooring) that would obviously cause an increase in the current mooring fees (9k pa subject to prompt payment discount).
I'm not that concerned as will not be here much longer anyway but it really is bonkers..
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Post by NigelMoore on Mar 20, 2018 15:01:22 GMT
And not strictly legal, in my understanding of the BW houseboat legislation [though I have not examined it in depth - Simon Robbins is the expert on this]. nabo.org.uk/files/nabo-news/nn-2011/1.pdf pages 18,19 CaRT are doing their usual thing of re-interpreting the provisions of the 1971 Act to remove what they would see as onerous [to then] obligation attaching to houseboat certificates. They are continuing the BW run-down of numbers issued, but until they have rid themselves of them entirely, they wish to reduce the impact on them of needing to provide security of tenure. Security of tenure is one thing (I don't personally believe that exist when living on a boat unless you own the land) but also the situation where private individuals sell the boat for an enormous premium due to assignable mooring. This locks out other potential customers resulting in a closed shop and surely that money should be for CRT? Or the mooring fees are too cheap... The position with houseboat certificates issued by CaRT is a special case. They have in fact modified their approach after their initial proclamations that the attendant moorings cannot be assigned with the boat; I believe they now acknowledge that it may be so, for the duration of the existing certificate. This does, however, apply only to sites controlled by them; it has no applicability to houseboats on private moorings, where the ‘gift’ of the mooring consent is out of their hands. The fact is that houseboat certificates are inextricably tied to their LPA approved residential moorings – the certificate cannot unilaterally confer a residential right absent the requisite planning consent. So the Houseboat Certificate runs chronologically commensurate with the mooring agreement at legitimate sites. By virtue of Schedule One of the 1995 Act, those with CaRT controlled Houseboat Certificates “ shall be entitled to assign the certificate to a person (being aged 18 or over) approved by the Board whose approval shall not be unreasonably withheld.” [s.5] It follows that those [only] with HC’s tied to a CaRT mooring, are entitled to assign the mooring rights for the length of time the HC is valid. That does not apply to pleasure boats on any moorings. Hence, the premium attached to the boat by reason of its mooring attaches to the houseboat owner. The question will arise on the certificate validity ending, whether CaRT renew it, but that is another question – and probably the same test of reasonableness would apply.
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Post by kris on Mar 20, 2018 15:18:37 GMT
I'm not that concerned as will not be here much longer anyway but it really is bonkers.. It does sound a bit bonkers, so you think the mooring will make over £10,000? I think the person who bought the boat is going to be in trouble. Where are you thinking of moving? Of is this top secret at the moment?
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Post by NigelMoore on Mar 20, 2018 15:32:16 GMT
Here is a link to Simon Robbins’ site – liveaboard-forum.blogspot.co.uk/p/why-ive-spent-20-years-defending-bw.html It could be added to my previous comment that the same obligation to issue the ‘relevant consent’ applies to houseboats as to pleasure boats, so if they wished to refuse renewal of an assigned Houseboat Certificate, CaRT would need to find, either one of the 3 statutory grounds of s.17 to be breached, or a breach of special conditions attaching to the Houseboat Certificate. I suppose it is arguable that a special condition might be drafted respecting allotted time at a CaRT residential mooring, though that would seem incompatible with the spirit of the law. It is, of course [if Nick will forgive me] an historical fact that many boats not registered with official houseboat certificates have been sold [certainly in London] for silly money just because they were ensconced on a BW mooring, and BW for many years took no notice so the premiums were doubtless considered worthwhile - some buyers even sold or scrapped the boats to substitute a better one, having 'acquired the mooring right'. It did not take too long before BW twigged that they were missing out on these premiums though, and the 'loophole' was swiftly closed with more attentive oversight. Not that it benefitted them particularly so far as I know; they would have been entitled to command the premium for themselves, by way of following marinas' examples of demanding a percentage cut of any boat sold on an existing mooring [they might even have tried that, perhaps it got all too complex, or legally fraught given their 'creature of statute' status].
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 15:49:02 GMT
I'm not that concerned as will not be here much longer anyway but it really is bonkers.. It does sound a bit bonkers, so you think the mooring will make over £10,000? I think the person who bought the boat is going to be in trouble. Where are you thinking of moving? Of is this top secret at the moment? All very hush hush yes
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Post by kris on Mar 20, 2018 15:53:26 GMT
It does sound a bit bonkers, so you think the mooring will make over £10,000? I think the person who bought the boat is going to be in trouble. Where are you thinking of moving? Of is this top secret at the moment? All very hush hush yes yes I thought so, can't you organise a mooring or two outside the HQ on the thames?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 15:59:38 GMT
I can not comment on this.
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Post by kris on Mar 20, 2018 16:01:58 GMT
Fair enough!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2018 16:03:34 GMT
Going back to the mooring the last 4 auctions ended at £10k,£12k,12k,13k (per year equivalent for a 3 year contract after which price reverts to "local rate" which is currently 9k on a steep upward trend).
Yes I could see the neighbour being a bit screwed especially as CRT have a habit of waiting a month or two before relisting the mooring.
Will be interesting to see how it pans out..
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Post by tecka on Mar 23, 2018 12:25:39 GMT
Going back to the mooring the last 4 auctions ended at £10k,£12k,12k,13k (per year equivalent for a 3 year contract after which price reverts to "local rate" which is currently 9k on a steep upward trend). Yes I could see the neighbour being a bit screwed especially as CRT have a habit of waiting a month or two before relisting the mooring. Will be interesting to see how it pans out.. Out of interest are the moorings your on, the new leisure moorings t'other side of Aldi (Burdett road IIRC) and the 4 residential moorings in the very overlooked little basin (Abbott's wharf, again IIRC) direct cart managed or are they about to be sold with the BWML stuff? I ask because a conservative guess of the income of these moorings is £100,000 per year. Not an inconsiderable sum, and I imagine the income will only increase as the years go by.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 13:14:41 GMT
teckaThey are all directly managed CRT moorings under the "waterside moorings" arrangement. I have a suspicion that if bwml gets sold off then watersidemoooringhe will be the next thing to go. The new moorings by Burdett road are leisure only and subject to "buy now" whereas the other two sites you mention (Andersen's wharf and Abbots Wharf) are residential and will go to auction when someone leaves. There will be an auction of a mooring on my site later this year probably in September (22mx4.2m mooring with all services and on street cpz parking). That's what I have been told by mooring manager - it will go to auction not buy now. Quite likely to be two moorings available because the other neighbour is going as well around the same time and their mooring is not assignable either.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2018 13:21:21 GMT
The moorings are approximately £9k each currently and overall there are 13 moorings on the 3 sites. The enclosed overlooked site is narrow only so a bit cheaper. £100k sounds about right but there is maintenance associated with the moorings as well..
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Post by tecka on Mar 23, 2018 13:25:29 GMT
Cheers, I asked out of curiosity more than anything. I thought that was the case so thanks for confirming.
I'm well on my way back up the GU now, can't decide whether to hit the Oxford next or go all the way up north.
I did have a brief look at the Burdett road leisure moorings when I was offered a reasonable job in the area. But with the restriction on having dogs on the pontoons and the high price meant I turned the job down.
I did also consider the vacancy in Abbot's wharf but those flats don't half crowd it and when I last looked the price was a tad steep for my Midlands blood.
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