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Post by JohnV on Jun 1, 2020 5:11:00 GMT
welcome aboard ianbruce
For engines Tony is your man
However if you are into funky mopeds then (if you should be so inclined) see Mr Stabby
For general idiocy ...... there is a wide choice
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Post by Jim on Jun 1, 2020 5:35:26 GMT
welcome aboard ianbruce
For engines Tony is your man
However if you are into funky mopeds then (if you should be so inclined) see Mr Stabby
For general idiocy ...... there is a wide choice Somebody called? Morning JohnV. π€‘ Good morning ianbruce.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jun 1, 2020 5:35:41 GMT
Hi Tony its Ianbruce over from the darkside. My woes with the big green thing are continuing. My overhaul amounted to an Oil change, investigation as to why No 3 Cylinder was overheating and why the governor didnt seem to work. My JP3M has a deck wash pump driven by a slave gear off the crank cog. I removed the head from no 3 to find it was blocked by limescale in the water passages. On opening up the crank case and removal of the housing under the fast slow lever I found the slave gear was minus lots of teeth the crank cog was fine. I mopped out the oil sludge, had a new gear made , disolved out the limescale and put it back together and cleaned out the day tank and filters. 18mths after it last run tried to start it no joy. Found there were issues with the injectors and had new nozzels fitted and tested. Still no joy. I did not touch the cam or crank. There appeared to be no problems with the gov just sticking a bit. Timing was next checked . I am familiar with the spill method after bleeding the thing to death I set the timing to all the marks. No joy, by moving the vernier to full retard got it to chase the starter with lots of grey smoke . Today reset the spill timing and got it to fire but not run with a slight retard. Next step is a compression test. I did put some redex in the cylinders in case rings stuck. Any advice would be great. and : The reason I called the pinch bolt a cotterpin was there is a slot in the drive shaft that the bolt fits into so even without the key you cannot put the coupling on wrong and it cannot slip. The key is new and un worn the slots it fits are worn on both the shaft and the coupling giving some play but it has previously not slipped and ran fine. and : Took the cover off the pump and watched no1 pump rise on the cam at the same time all timing marks came in line. So pump is not out of time. Hello Ian, and welcome to Thunderboat. The governor fault - presumably it's sticking and/or sluggish and jerky in operation - just might be a pointer to your starting/running problems, and really should be investigated before doing anything else. If the fault is somewhere in the engine's governor components then it can be disregarded for now and sorted out later, but if the injector pump control rack is the source of the problem and isn't moving freely and smoothly within the pump body, then it could be that one or more of the pump elements has partially seized just prior to or during the 18 months since the engine last ran. I know that this may sound unlikely, but if there was as much as the tiniest trace of water getting to the engine in the fuel and any remained in the pump during the lay-up it could well have caused enough corrosion in the pump elements to induce enough of a partial seizure to prevent tired old pump element return springs returning the plungers to the bottom of their stroke after each operation. I suggest you eliminate this from the list of possible causes before re-checking or doing anything else, . . by disconnecting the pump rack from the governor link bar and checking it for freedom of operation and smoothness independently of the governor and it's linkage. It would also be worthwhile taking the side cover plate off the pump and watching all three pump elements and springs just to make sure they're returning all the way to the bottom of their stroke while it's turning over. From what you've said on here and on CWDF it appears that you have pretty much followed the procedures for checking injection timing as laid out in the engine manual, . . but with any engine as old as JP's now are, and probably with a phenomenally high number of running hours under it's belt, an accumulation of wear and mechanical damage to various components sustained either from ordinary everyday running, or running with certain components having worked loose in operation, or during previous strip-downs and re-assembly can sometimes lead to some of the auxiliary timing marks, particularly those closest to the pump in the pump drive train being a long way out in relation to the true positions of the crank and pistons relative to actual TDC and the timing of the commencement of injection, which on your engine is 24 degrees before TDC or 4.85" (4-7/8" in practical terms) BTDC round the rim of the 23" flywheel. The pinch bolt in the driver half of the injection pump coupling does, as you say, pass through a shallow semi-circular tangential recess in the pump drive shaft, but the bolt is a clearance fit in the coupling boss and in the recess allowing a degree or two of rotational movement between the two components which, due to the pump being driven at half the crankshaft speed, is doubled on the crankshaft and flywheel. Add that discrepancy to the effective retardation caused through timing gear wear and pump drive bevel gear wear, and the discrepancy between what various timing marks on the pump and drive are telling you and what the flywheel TDC and Firing marks are telling you can become quite considerable. To eliminate the effect of all of these possible cumulative errors it is essential that the true position of the crank and flywheel at spill-cut off is determined ONLY from the Firing mark on the flywheel rim and NOT in relation to any other marks on the injector pump or on the pump drive components. It can on occasion be worthwhile to check the accuracy of the position of the Firing mark on the flywheel rim by measurement from a new TDC mark on the flywheel rim established from where No.1 piston has been measured at the highest point of it's travel in the bore. There are two relatively quick and easy ways to measure piston height without taking the head off, and I'll explain how to do so if it proves necessary in this instance. Whilst we're on the subject of piston height, did you happen to measure the bumping clearance when you had the head off No 3 cylinder ? Works spec. is 0.045" - 0.050".
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Post by ianbruce on Jun 1, 2020 13:06:20 GMT
Thanks Tony, I think we can discount the governor as it operates from the back of the engine with a rod pushing on the throttle lever and is not part of the pump. I have watched the pump springs inside looks ok. no1 lifts on the cam as the timing marks line up. The rack operates freely. I set the spill point dead on the ignition mark on the fly wheel still did not fire. Then adjusted the vernier a few graduations in each direction. I now have the engine firing chasing the starter but not running at slightly retarded. A mixture of black and grey smoke. The coupling has only very little movement. It used to slap back on the cam when the key was worn giving the engine a Clickity Clack sound. I replaced the key some time ago and no further noise no sign of wear when I took it off last week. I am going to do a compression test and will check the TDC point. I used to do it by putting a long screw driver down the injector hole.I can see the piston through the slot in the bottom of the combustion chamber I am fairly sure now its not timing and am betting the compression is not good or the starter too slow. I did not test the bump on No 3 not sure what that is I made sure that the valves cleared the piston I used a new copper gasket I didnt touch the valves.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jun 2, 2020 11:50:46 GMT
Thanks Tony, I think we can discount the governor as it operates from the back of the engine with a rod pushing on the throttle lever and is not part of the pump. I have watched the pump springs inside looks ok. no1 lifts on the cam as the timing marks line up. The rack operates freely. I set the spill point dead on the ignition mark on the fly wheel still did not fire. Then adjusted the vernier a few graduations in each direction. I now have the engine firing chasing the starter but not running at slightly retarded. A mixture of black and grey smoke. The coupling has only very little movement. It used to slap back on the cam when the key was worn giving the engine a Clickity Clack sound. I replaced the key some time ago and no further noise no sign of wear when I took it off last week. I am going to do a compression test and will check the TDC point. I used to do it by putting a long screw driver down the injector hole.I can see the piston through the slot in the bottom of the combustion chamber I am fairly sure now its not timing and am betting the compression is not good or the starter too slow. I did not test the bump on No 3 not sure what that is I made sure that the valves cleared the piston I used a new copper gasket I didnt touch the valves. An engine producing black smoke from the exhaust whilst being turned over on the starter is burning the fuel that's producing the smoke, and if the fuel is burning it first has to have been ignited. Given, therefore, that your CI engine - meaning 'compression ignition', alternative terminology for a diesel engine - is quite obviously succeeding in igniting the fuel being injected into it's cylinders, your theory about lack of sufficient compression and the engine not being turned over fast enough is as much of a non-starter as is your seriously mis-timed engine. You appear not to have understood or believed much, if anything, that was explained in my earlier post or in the sound and helpful post that Martyn from Marine Power Services in Poole took the trouble to put up on CWDF after I expressed my opinion of the worthless advice you had been given earlier by others.
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Post by ianbruce on Jun 2, 2020 13:13:01 GMT
Sorry I will go through it again
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Post by ianbruce on Jun 2, 2020 14:58:08 GMT
Hi,I have compared the TDC of No1 cylinder with TDC mark on the fly wheel in line with the mark on the block and its spot on.I have measured the distance between the stamped TDC mark and the ignition mark at 5 1/8". I will now reset the spill to 4 7/8. I shall ignore the timing marks on the coupling. Post again later
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Post by ianbruce on Jun 2, 2020 19:58:48 GMT
The story so far.. the plan was to change the oil, mop out the sump, clean oil filter. Investigate why no3 cylinder was over heating. Clean fuel filter and address rust at the bottom of day tank caused by condensation/leaking roof at fuel filler. Pump coupling slack check key.
Took out day tank 1/4 " thick no problem. Cleaned out furry stuff / bug and refitted. Removed water pump found slave gear off crank gear missing teeth, Crank ok. Think I spoke to Martin when searching for a new gear. Had a new one made. Water Pump appeared to have seized taken apart and freed off. ( didnt know you had to oil it) all refitted. No3 head water passages blocked by lime scale, disolved out , new gasket and refitted. Fuel coupling key ok pinch bolt nut had broken bolt replaced.
Fuel system bled and primed tried to start no joy. Checked injectors 1 just dribbles, one not working,. Taken to injection specialist 3 newΒ nozzels fitted and tested. Only thing I can think of is bits got in the fuel line. 18 months since last ran.
Having attemped to start I put some redex in each cylinder in case rings were stuck.
There is compression in each of the cylinders.
The elements on the pump are numbered. The numbers stamped into the pump body. No 1 element connects to the cylinder at the flywheel end, No2 to the middle one and No3 to the back one I found the O on the coupling with some wet n dry. It is in the correct position although I have got the fibre thingy around the wrong way. So the O on it doesnt quite line up with the other two.
Further to my previous post I timed the spill cut off to 4 7/8" BTDCΒ having checked No 1 cylinder was at TDC when the stamped mark on the fly wheel was in line with the mark on the block. The spill cut off was about 6 inches advanced but adjusted back on the vernier.
Attempted to start engine fired chasing the starter and lots of black smoke. But would not run.
Thanks Ian
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 20:20:45 GMT
Sorry I will go through it again Consider yourself justly chastised.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jun 3, 2020 7:02:45 GMT
I have compared the TDC of No1 cylinder with TDC mark on the fly wheel in line with the mark on the block and its spot on.I have measured the distance between the stamped TDC mark and the ignition mark at 5 1/8". I will now reset the spill to 4 7/8. I shall ignore the timing marks on the coupling. Post again later and : The elements on the pump are numbered. The numbers stamped into the pump body. No 1 element connects to the cylinder at the flywheel end, No2 to the middle one and No3 to the back one I found the O on the coupling with some wet n dry. It is in the correct position although I have got the fibre thingy around the wrong way. So the O on it doesnt quite line up with the other two. . . . . . . . . . . . . . I timed the spill cut off to 4 7/8" BTDC having checked No 1 cylinder was at TDC when the stamped mark on the fly wheel was in line with the mark on the block. The spill cut off was about 6 inches advanced but adjusted back on the vernier. Attempted to start engine fired chasing the starter and lots of black smoke. But would not run. The 5-1/8" spacing you've measured and quoted from the No.1 TDC mark to the No.1 Firing/Injection mark on your flywheel is only 0.075" under the 5.200" spacing between those two marks on a 23" flywheel off a 45 bhp JK3M rated at 1500 rpm, . . so there's a good chance that it might not be the same flywheel that your engine originally left the factory with. Assuming that you've set No.1 cylinder spill timing on the correct stroke - ie. the compression stroke at around 330 degrees in the normal direction of rotation from the midpoint of No.1 Exhaust and Inlet valves overlapping 'on the rock' - the good news is that there really isn't anything much else left to prevent the engine from starting and running, . . apart from another item it wouldn't have left the factory with, . . a non-standard injector pump fitted with a cam delivering a 1-2-3 injection sequence instead of the 1-3-2 sequence the JP3M runs on. You could confirm or eliminate this possibility by checking that spill cut-off on No's 2 and 3 is coinciding with the 1-3-2 firing order for cylinders No's 2 and 3, or you could take all three injector pipes off and watch the order of the fuel 'squib' from each delivery valve holder with the engine turning over. Even easier and quicker would be to simply swap round the No's 2 and 3 injector pipes at the pump end. Give it a try !
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Post by ianbruce on Jun 3, 2020 12:35:28 GMT
Thanks Tony, I havnt changed anything since it last ran pump wise. I will check the pump firing order. From serial no,s the engine was marinised in 1959 and the pump serial no is 1988BH so it appears its a later pump model, a CAV BPE3B. The spill was set on the compression stroke I watched the valve rockers and felt the compression as I turned the fly wheel.
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Post by ianbruce on Jun 3, 2020 15:02:03 GMT
I have checked the firing order of the pump and it is 1_3_2. Used the visual method watching for the squib as it is not possible to swap the pipes over without bending them .
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Post by TonyDunkley on Jun 3, 2020 18:16:21 GMT
I have checked the firing order of the pump and it is 1_3_2. Used the visual method watching for the squib as it is not possible to swap the pipes over without bending them . Was the day service tank re-filled with fresh gas oil or diesel after it was cleaned out, . . . and while you were watching the 'squib' from each delivery valve holder with the engine turning over on the starter, did the amount delivered from each pump element in turn look to be roughly the same ? Depending on the answers, the next thing to turn attention to would be the functioning and internal condition of the injector pump, . . beginning with the delivery valves and seats, and the element return springs. Injector pipes as long as those on the JP3 along with defective delivery valves can drastically reduce the amount of fuel delivered to the injectors on each stroke, sometimes down to virtually nothing, whilst at the same time effectively retarding the timing of the actual fuel delivery at each injector by many degrees, despite the timing being set correctly at the pump.
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Post by ianbruce on Jun 4, 2020 13:36:01 GMT
Thanks Tony, The day tank was refilled from the boats main tank. The day tank holds 20 litres. The fuel is about 4 years old and has bug stuff added both at source and myself. I have asked wether it gets old but everyone has said no. I have considered rigging up a temporary fuel supply with fresh fuel as I know 20 % of this bio stuff degrades within weeks of leaving the refinery. I turned the flywheel by hand to check the squib but have several times whilst bleeding turned it over with the injectors disconnected and the delivery from the pipes looked the same. I have even turned the injectors upside down to check they were working with a little plastic bottle over each one. The injectors shot the bottles off producing a fine spray I have set the spill from no3 as well previously. As soon as SWMBO allows I will have another play today and recheck. Bleed it through again and check the spill for each element. Tomorrow I have an engineer who knows Listers coming out. We will do a pressure test to eliminate that possibility. And go thru it all over. Its on my to do list to rip out the back cabin clean out the main fuel tank and fit a fuel gauge. I have no idea how much fuel it holds most ive put is 100 litres. Usually when criusing on the canal she uses about 1 litre an hour and I fill up about every 60 hrs run time.
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Post by brummieboy on Jun 4, 2020 16:21:16 GMT
Thanks Tony, The day tank was refilled from the boats main tank. The day tank holds 20 litres. The fuel is about 4 years old and has bug stuff added both at source and . I have asked wether it gets old but everyone has said no. I have considered rigging up a temporary fuel supply with fresh fuel as I know 20 % of this bio stuff degrades within weeks of leaving the refinery. Depending on what additives are used, they may not be compatible if using 2, and it is possible to overdose fuel. The ratios of additive to fuel is very small, and when adding it to a fill of say 200 litres, you need little more than a screw capful. If you are going to fill the day tank with fresh fuel, do not put any additive in. I bought a 2 litre bottle of Exocet from a farm suppliers, and dosed a fill, and a subsequent part fill. In 25 years, I'd never had a problem, and after 2 months post dosing, I had to clean everything out as the additive had created a 'bug' of sorts. I still have 1 1/2 litres if anyone wants it.
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