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Post by peterboat on Apr 24, 2016 18:20:59 GMT
Can you list these consequences for me please? I would appreciate seeing what they are, and how important I consider them to be. Well I did answer this, but my post has somehow disappeared. I gave the reasons for my views back on page 1, but since this forum has no post numbers I've copied it below to save you searching:
"Well I didn't see the programme, but from the comments on here the In campaign seems once again to have shot themselves in the foot, allowing Peter Mandleson, a very unpopular politician with his own agenda, to get people's backs up. This after the publicity of the glossy leaflets and now the IMF interfering.
As I've said before, I'm totally for the EU and our remaining in, but I despair. If we leave Europe will be in a sorry state, and may collapse into a motley of squabbling states, even into war. Putin is certainly rubbing his hands over this. Yes, the UK could manage outside the EU, but at what price to France, Spain, even Germany, etc? I am as concerned about the rest of Europe as I am about the UK, and can clearly see that the selfish and parochial nationalism which seems to prevail here could easily lead us into a disastrous mistake.
This whole referendum is a mistake. The trust and interdependence with our European allies has already been badly eroded merely to appease a few loudmouth rebels in the Tory party who took the opportunity to twist arms once the moderating influence of the Lib Dems had gone.
I know that this is not a popular view here, but I just hope that at least the electorate as a whole will allow us to get on with the job of reforming the admittedly bloated and self-serving Brussels bureaucracy from within, because we certainly won't be able to do it from without.
Read more: thunderboat.boards.net/thread/75/brexit-discussion-on-bbc2#ixzz46lgaHF8K
The thing is the EU just dont care about us as the latest attempts at reform prove. It seems to me we are a cash cow and whilst ever we do well we will pay more, so its not in the interests at all to change the EU. If it was a fully reformed EU I would stay in and I mean real reforms, ie take it back to the common market with no interference in our countries, just a simple trade association is my favoured idea, but that will never happen because to many rich eurocrats are milking the system for all its worth
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Post by macwolfelee on Apr 24, 2016 18:21:02 GMT
Well I did answer this, but my post has somehow disappeared. I gave the reasons for my views back on page 1, but since this forum has no post numbers I've copied it below to save you searching:
"Well I didn't see the programme, but from the comments on here the In campaign seems once again to have shot themselves in the foot, allowing Peter Mandleson, a very unpopular politician with his own agenda, to get people's backs up. This after the publicity of the glossy leaflets and now the IMF interfering.
As I've said before, I'm totally for the EU and our remaining in, but I despair. If we leave Europe will be in a sorry state, and may collapse into a motley of squabbling states, even into war. Putin is certainly rubbing his hands over this. Yes, the UK could manage outside the EU, but at what price to France, Spain, even Germany, etc? I am as concerned about the rest of Europe as I am about the UK, and can clearly see that the selfish and parochial nationalism which seems to prevail here could easily lead us into a disastrous mistake.
This whole referendum is a mistake. The trust and interdependence with our European allies has already been badly eroded merely to appease a few loudmouth rebels in the Tory party who took the opportunity to twist arms once the moderating influence of the Lib Dems had gone.
I know that this is not a popular view here, but I just hope that at least the electorate as a whole will allow us to get on with the job of reforming the admittedly bloated and self-serving Brussels bureaucracy from within, because we certainly won't be able to do it from without.
Read more: thunderboat.boards.net/thread/75/brexit-discussion-on-bbc2#ixzz46lgaHF8K
Oh right. I thought you had some evidence base facts or something. Plenty of evidence based on European history and more recently comments by both Putin and Obama. ISIS are certainly also rubbing their dirty bloodstained hands over this.
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Post by macwolfelee on Apr 24, 2016 18:24:33 GMT
The thing is the EU just dont care about us as the latest attempts at reform prove. It seems to me we are a cash cow and whilst ever we do well we will pay more, so its not in the interests at all to change the EU. If it was a fully reformed EU I would stay in and I mean real reforms, ie take it back to the common market with no interference in our countries, just a simple trade association is my favoured idea, but that will never happen because to many rich eurocrats are milking the system for all its worth Well as should be obvious by now, your 'reform' is not the same as mine. Reform implies progress, not retreat.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 18:40:21 GMT
Oh right. I thought you had some evidence base facts or something. Plenty of evidence based on European history and more recently comments by both Putin and Obama. ISIS are certainly also rubbing their dirty bloodstained hands over this. It's just your assumptions. I don't see any evidence, or anything solid that would make me change my mind I'm afraid. It looks like it will be up to the individual on the day, voting for what they think best suits their circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 18:42:26 GMT
The thing is the EU just dont care about us as the latest attempts at reform prove. It seems to me we are a cash cow and whilst ever we do well we will pay more, so its not in the interests at all to change the EU. If it was a fully reformed EU I would stay in and I mean real reforms, ie take it back to the common market with no interference in our countries, just a simple trade association is my favoured idea, but that will never happen because to many rich eurocrats are milking the system for all its worth Well as should be obvious by now, your 'reform' is not the same as mine. Reform implies progress, not retreat. Sometimes, a retreat can aid progress, Dunkirk for instance (just off the top of my head).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 18:59:16 GMT
It wasn't my intention to denigrate you mildly or indeed in any degree so can I firstly apologise if my banter has been misconstrued it was entirely unintentional.We can debate the semantics of the words concern or fear, though in the context you have been posting I would contend they effectively mean the same thing. I think I have made it plain that unlike you I have no concern about Europe only the UK and though I agree with your theory regarding separation being lesser than cooperation I don't believe that separation will actually ever occur as you believe,rather we always have and would trade with Europe in or out. You do me a disservice suggesting my reaction as knee jerk as I have been as consistent as you have. Can I finally ask you how change is going to be accomplished,how are we to enable reform of any kind by returning a yes vote when History proves otherwise what changes with a yes vote ?I would suggest nothing and that is the fault as far as I am concerned with the whole argument for remaining,all you can realistically offer me is more of the same. Yes it will be more of the same in the short term (by this I mean the foreseeable future). However the changes that you would seek are not the same as what I would. Mine are more in line with the ambitions for the EU held by several other member states, ie further integration including political which is the only way the EU will work efficiently instead of the present half-baked mess. Realistically I can't see this happening in my lifetime, because of the gung-ho Tory right whipping people up into unwarranted nationalism. But if we leave this process will be set back 50 years or even never happen, and heaven knows what will happen to Europe. Sorry I want change and I hope you understand that my voting for Brexit offers the best chance of that, and though I don't consider myself nationalist,when I see the way we are going as a result of this failed multiculturalism I can understand that too.
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Post by Saltysplash on Apr 24, 2016 19:01:19 GMT
And I have done the same too, when I last totted it up I had been to just under 30 different European countries with work, as far away as the Lada factory in Togliatti, Rostov-on-Don, Istanbul and Tbilisi. For some I needed a visa, and somebody would get that for me, or I would obtain it at the border. It wasn't such an enormous problem that I would be prepared to see my children unable to ever obtain affordable accommodation or earn a living wage to sidestep it. If your labour is needed in a certain country, it is never a problem to obtain permission to give it. However, the westward movement of eu labour isn't needed, it is just done to drive down wages. I go to places in my truck that I have been going to for 30 years (let's say for example a vegetable packhouse in Lincolnshire). 30 years ago everybody working there lived in the local towns and villages, in 2016 there will not be one single non-eastern European in the place. So where are the sons and daughters of the people I saw there 30 years ago? Answer, they are on the dole, watching Jeremy Kyle, and who can blame them because how else can you survive if you have to pay western European rents on eastern European wages? The whole thing is a gigantic con trick perpetuated by the ruling class at the expense of the working class. The media support it obviously because the media is the mouthpiece of the ruling class. It's depressing that so many people just cannot see that. I don't "hate" any of the people who have moved westward over the last decade and continue to do so, I say "blame the game, not the players" and I do very seriously blame the game for what is happening now, which is why I will be voting to leave the game in June. Hear Him
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Post by thebfg on Apr 24, 2016 20:45:07 GMT
You make your position clear,I just can't see why you are so fearful? and like all these IN people you haven't convinced me.There is only one fear the INS could have and thats fear of the unknown. Cowardice they called it in The Great War Who says I am fearful? Don't make things up and put words into peoples mouths.
The results of both an In or Out vote are equally uncertain (but not entirely unknown).
Using the word cowardice borders on the offensive.
out maybe an uncertainty but I must of missed why staying in would change anything surly it would be business as usual.
I have had to manage many big changes at work, Two takeovers and massive system and policy changes over the years, one thing I have learned is no one likes change. It takes a long time to accept it, embracing it takes even longer if at all for a lot of people or maybe I just work with a load of people stuck in their ways and unable to move with the times.
I watched the BBC news aticle on Friday about Obamas visit, One thing they made clear is they are bias and not neutral as they should be.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 21:35:32 GMT
Who says I am fearful? Don't make things up and put words into peoples mouths.
The results of both an In or Out vote are equally uncertain (but not entirely unknown).
Using the word cowardice borders on the offensive.
out maybe an uncertainty but I must of missed why staying in would change anything surly it would be business as usual.
I have had to manage many big changes at work, Two takeovers and massive system and policy changes over the years, one thing I have learned is no one likes change. It takes a long time to accept it, embracing it takes even longer if at all for a lot of people or maybe I just work with a load of people stuck in their ways and unable to move with the times.
I watched the BBC news aticle on Friday about Obamas visit, One thing they made clear is they are bias and not neutral as they should be.
Your spot on about BBC bias,and not just about Europe but any number of issues.They are terrified to go against the Government in case they scrap the TV license fee.Welcome to the forum,great to see you posting
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2016 7:28:00 GMT
Its being reported this morning that Obamas warning about Britain being at the back of the queue post Brexit are starting to unravel as its clarified what he actually meant. The clarified position is that Britain won't be able to do a Trade Deal with the US quicker than the EU would and Defence and Intelligence would remain as is. I suppose those of us for BREXIT weren't fooled by him in any case. I don't know about anyone else but I think this Obama is the Black George Bush,please correct me if you think different?
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 25, 2016 8:00:24 GMT
Nicely written, iconoclast. Somebody should be copying and printing some of your posts for your grandchildren to read. Not being peculiar, just thinking that some writings are worth preserving.
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Post by peterboat on Apr 25, 2016 8:14:17 GMT
I was at my partners mum and stepdad yesterday she is an ex labour MEP and getting increasingly panicky about Brexit Dave says they will emigrate I laughed and said I suspect without us and our money the EU would collapse. Her worry who would pay her pension mmmmmmm! Please please lets all vote out for a change for the better we have been very successful as a country before, and its only since the EU that our fortunes have changed, we were conned!
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Post by thebfg on Apr 25, 2016 8:17:15 GMT
Its being reported this morning that Obamas warning about Britain being at the back of the queue post Brexit are starting to unravel as its clarified what he actually meant. The clarified position is that Britain won't be able to do a Trade Deal with the US quicker than the EU would and Defence and Intelligence would remain as is. I suppose those of us for BREXIT weren't fooled by him in any case. I don't know about anyone else but I think this Obama is the Black George Bush,please correct me if you think different? I think he should of had a sit down and thought about what he was going to say.
Im sure he would love American laws written in Canada and opening the borders to twenty million south Americans.
He wont be in the white house anyway and I'm not convinced we would stop trading with European countries anyway. in
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Post by thebfg on Apr 25, 2016 8:26:28 GMT
I was at my partners mum and stepdad yesterday she is an ex labour MEP and getting increasingly panicky about Brexit Dave says they will emigrate I laughed and said I suspect without us and our money the EU would collapse. Her worry who would pay her pension mmmmmmm! Please please lets all vote out for a change for the better we have been very successful as a country before, and its only since the EU that our fortunes have changed, we were conned! I'm with you, I would love to see it lead to us getting back to our roots, farming, industry lets get those factories back.
I just cant see a company dealing with another in say france all off a sudden stopping, all because were not a part of a club, if both those business really on each other, they will continue to do so. I can only see it creating jobs.
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Post by JohnV on Apr 25, 2016 16:50:17 GMT
I agree we buy a lot of French agricultural produce, and they are one powerful lobby. If they find their sales to the UK being restricted because The EU is restricting UK goods going to Europe they will be burning dung heaps on the Champs Elysee.
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