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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 24, 2016 16:28:26 GMT
Maybe we could get rid of the county's retarded planning laws and build some more housing. We could employ the immigrants to build it Well, we could do, but the simple fact is that we do not have a shortage of labour, and so we don't really need any more people. However, as I said earlier, the more labour there is available, the less that labour is worth, and that is why the Thatcher/Merkel/Blair faction were and are so in support of it. To understand what is happening now from a historical perspective, I would thoroughly recommend reading John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 16:29:22 GMT
I don't know where you make that deduction,Theresa May has a different one on Andrew Marr earlier she reckons we will never be able to control it The words that come out of Theresa May's mouth rarely resemble the facts. We have failed to control it up until now
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 16:31:41 GMT
I think macwolfelee may be the sanest one on this subject, despite me having my own views and preferring to hold the rest of Europe at barge pole distance. Although I don't know if I'm allowed to say that, as it looks like I'm not eligible to vote. macwolfelee has a track record of saying sensible stuff. Always worth bearing in mind the 'respect for your elders' - some of us have more experience of life in all its aspects. That gives us a stepped-back perspective at the bigger picture. I would love to have you explain why you think that
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Post by Delta9 on Apr 24, 2016 16:32:36 GMT
The words that come out of Theresa May's mouth rarely resemble the facts. We have failed to control it up until now Theresa May's mouth? Yes, I agree.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 24, 2016 16:35:13 GMT
Mutton dressed as lamb. George thinks she'd be lovely covered in mint sauce.
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Post by Delta9 on Apr 24, 2016 16:35:35 GMT
Maybe we could get rid of the county's retarded planning laws and build some more housing. We could employ the immigrants to build it Well, we could do, but the simple fact is that we do not have a shortage of labour, and so we don't really need any more people. However, as I said earlier, the more labour there is available, the less that labour is worth, and that is why the Thatcher/Merkel/Blair faction were and are so in support of it. To understand what is happening now from a historical perspective, I would thoroughly recommend reading John Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath". To be honest I couldn't give a flying fuck about its effect on the UK. I want the freedom to move and work in Europe as I have done for most of my life without having to get visas and permission to work. That is the only issue that is important to me.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 24, 2016 16:41:30 GMT
"I would love to have you explain why you think that"
I would have a go but I'm cooking and it's almost ready, will have to wait for another time - remind me.
It's chicken (!) in sweet-&-sour sauce Szechuan style with basmati rice + corn.
(I've followed mac's comments for a few months and you can't really fault him. He's Scots - and they ARE better educated than the English (my observation). )
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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 24, 2016 17:04:51 GMT
To be honest I couldn't give a flying fuck about its effect on the UK. I want the freedom to move and work in Europe as I have done for most of my life without having to get visas and permission to work. That is the only issue that is important to me. And I have done the same too, when I last totted it up I had been to just under 30 different European countries with work, as far away as the Lada factory in Togliatti, Rostov-on-Don, Istanbul and Tbilisi. For some I needed a visa, and somebody would get that for me, or I would obtain it at the border. It wasn't such an enormous problem that I would be prepared to see my children unable to ever obtain affordable accommodation or earn a living wage to sidestep it. If your labour is needed in a certain country, it is never a problem to obtain permission to give it. However, the westward movement of eu labour isn't needed, it is just done to drive down wages. I go to places in my truck that I have been going to for 30 years (let's say for example a vegetable packhouse in Lincolnshire). 30 years ago everybody working there lived in the local towns and villages, in 2016 there will not be one single non-eastern European in the place. So where are the sons and daughters of the people I saw there 30 years ago? Answer, they are on the dole, watching Jeremy Kyle, and who can blame them because how else can you survive if you have to pay western European rents on eastern European wages? The whole thing is a gigantic con trick perpetuated by the ruling class at the expense of the working class. The media support it obviously because the media is the mouthpiece of the ruling class. It's depressing that so many people just cannot see that. I don't "hate" any of the people who have moved westward over the last decade and continue to do so, I say "blame the game, not the players" and I do very seriously blame the game for what is happening now, which is why I will be voting to leave the game in June.
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Post by ammodels on Apr 24, 2016 17:06:57 GMT
To be honest I couldn't give a flying fuck about its effect on the UK. I want the freedom to move and work in Europe as I have done for most of my life without having to get visas and permission to work. That is the only issue that is important to me. And I have done the same too, when I last totted it up I had been to just under 30 different European countries with work, as far away as the Lada factory in Togliatti, Rostov-on-Don, Istanbul and Tbilisi. For some I needed a visa, and somebody would get that for me, or I would obtain it at the border. It wasn't such an enormous problem that I would be prepared to see my children unable to ever obtain affordable accommodation or earn a living wage to sidestep it. If your labour is needed in a certain country, it is never a problem to obtain permission to give it. However, the westward movement of eu labour isn't needed, it is just done to drive down wages. I go to places in my truck that I have been going to for 30 years (let's say for example a vegetable packhouse in Lincolnshire). 30 years ago everybody working there lived in the local towns and villages, in 2016 there will not be one single non-eastern European in the place. So where are the sons and daughters of the people I saw there 30 years ago? Answer, they are on the dole, watching Jeremy Kyle, and who can blame them because how else can you survive if you have to pay western European rents on eastern European wages? The whole thing is a gigantic con trick perpetuated by the ruling class at the expense of the working class. The media support it obviously because the media is the mouthpiece of the ruling class. It's depressing that so many people just cannot see that. I don't "hate" any of the people who have moved westward over the last decade and continue to do so, I say "blame the game, not the players" and I do very seriously blame the game for what is happening now, which is why I will be voting to leave the game in June. Couldnt agree more IC, sorry.
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Post by macwolfelee on Apr 24, 2016 17:20:56 GMT
Well I'm glad that you've spoken to many who intend to vote in! On this forum I seem to be in a minority of one. But you are wrong about fear. It should be obvious that my opinions are based on principle, not fear. I'm too old to be afraid of what happens to Britain, in or out. And both my sons will be working for international companies.
While we're about it, the anti-Americanism popping up among the out camp isn't going to do us much good if they get their way, is it?
What a load of waffle you talk sir, you are already on record in your earlier posts about your greatest fear of an OUT vote being your perceived fear of negative impact on the rest of Europe.Indeed one other poster challenged you about why you were more concerned about Europe than your own country.Your opinions are based on" Principle not Fear " do you read what you post? I not only read it, I write it on a considered basis, not the knee-jerk reaction which you seem to favour. For your enlightenment, concern is not the same as fear. My principle is that co-operation is better than separation in almost all cases, and my concern is that in this case separation will have unwelcome consequences for us and the rest of the world. Your use of the word fear is emotive and inaccurate as well as mildly denigrating.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 17:40:48 GMT
What a load of waffle you talk sir, you are already on record in your earlier posts about your greatest fear of an OUT vote being your perceived fear of negative impact on the rest of Europe.Indeed one other poster challenged you about why you were more concerned about Europe than your own country.Your opinions are based on" Principle not Fear " do you read what you post? I not only read it, I write it on a considered basis, not the knee-jerk reaction which you seem to favour. For your enlightenment, concern is not the same as fear. My principle is that co-operation is better than separation in almost all cases, and my concern is that in this case separation will have unwelcome consequences for us and the rest of the world. Your use of the word fear is emotive and inaccurate as well as mildly denigrating. Can you list these consequences for me please? I would appreciate seeing what they are, and how important I consider them to be.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 17:55:18 GMT
What a load of waffle you talk sir, you are already on record in your earlier posts about your greatest fear of an OUT vote being your perceived fear of negative impact on the rest of Europe.Indeed one other poster challenged you about why you were more concerned about Europe than your own country.Your opinions are based on" Principle not Fear " do you read what you post? I not only read it, I write it on a considered basis, not the knee-jerk reaction which you seem to favour. For your enlightenment, concern is not the same as fear. My principle is that co-operation is better than separation in almost all cases, and my concern is that in this case separation will have unwelcome consequences for us and the rest of the world. Your use of the word fear is emotive and inaccurate as well as mildly denigrating. It wasn't my intention to denigrate you mildly or indeed in any degree so can I firstly apologise if my banter has been misconstrued it was entirely unintentional.We can debate the semantics of the words concern or fear, though in the context you have been posting I would contend they effectively mean the same thing. I think I have made it plain that unlike you I have no concern about Europe only the UK and though I agree with your theory regarding separation being lesser than cooperation I don't believe that separation will actually ever occur as you believe,rather we always have and would trade with Europe in or out. You do me a disservice suggesting my reaction as knee jerk as I have been as consistent as you have. Can I finally ask you how change is going to be accomplished,how are we to enable reform of any kind by returning a yes vote when History proves otherwise what changes with a yes vote ?I would suggest nothing and that is the fault as far as I am concerned with the whole argument for remaining,all you can realistically offer me is more of the same.
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Post by macwolfelee on Apr 24, 2016 18:04:13 GMT
I not only read it, I write it on a considered basis, not the knee-jerk reaction which you seem to favour. For your enlightenment, concern is not the same as fear. My principle is that co-operation is better than separation in almost all cases, and my concern is that in this case separation will have unwelcome consequences for us and the rest of the world. Your use of the word fear is emotive and inaccurate as well as mildly denigrating. Can you list these consequences for me please? I would appreciate seeing what they are, and how important I consider them to be. Well I did answer this, but my post has somehow disappeared. I gave the reasons for my views back on page 1, but since this forum has no post numbers I've copied it below to save you searching:
"Well I didn't see the programme, but from the comments on here the In campaign seems once again to have shot themselves in the foot, allowing Peter Mandleson, a very unpopular politician with his own agenda, to get people's backs up. This after the publicity of the glossy leaflets and now the IMF interfering.
As I've said before, I'm totally for the EU and our remaining in, but I despair. If we leave Europe will be in a sorry state, and may collapse into a motley of squabbling states, even into war. Putin is certainly rubbing his hands over this. Yes, the UK could manage outside the EU, but at what price to France, Spain, even Germany, etc? I am as concerned about the rest of Europe as I am about the UK, and can clearly see that the selfish and parochial nationalism which seems to prevail here could easily lead us into a disastrous mistake.
This whole referendum is a mistake. The trust and interdependence with our European allies has already been badly eroded merely to appease a few loudmouth rebels in the Tory party who took the opportunity to twist arms once the moderating influence of the Lib Dems had gone.
I know that this is not a popular view here, but I just hope that at least the electorate as a whole will allow us to get on with the job of reforming the admittedly bloated and self-serving Brussels bureaucracy from within, because we certainly won't be able to do it from without.
Read more: thunderboat.boards.net/thread/75/brexit-discussion-on-bbc2#ixzz46lgaHF8K
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2016 18:12:14 GMT
Can you list these consequences for me please? I would appreciate seeing what they are, and how important I consider them to be. Well I did answer this, but my post has somehow disappeared. I gave the reasons for my views back on page 1, but since this forum has no post numbers I've copied it below to save you searching:
"Well I didn't see the programme, but from the comments on here the In campaign seems once again to have shot themselves in the foot, allowing Peter Mandleson, a very unpopular politician with his own agenda, to get people's backs up. This after the publicity of the glossy leaflets and now the IMF interfering.
As I've said before, I'm totally for the EU and our remaining in, but I despair. If we leave Europe will be in a sorry state, and may collapse into a motley of squabbling states, even into war. Putin is certainly rubbing his hands over this. Yes, the UK could manage outside the EU, but at what price to France, Spain, even Germany, etc? I am as concerned about the rest of Europe as I am about the UK, and can clearly see that the selfish and parochial nationalism which seems to prevail here could easily lead us into a disastrous mistake.
This whole referendum is a mistake. The trust and interdependence with our European allies has already been badly eroded merely to appease a few loudmouth rebels in the Tory party who took the opportunity to twist arms once the moderating influence of the Lib Dems had gone.
I know that this is not a popular view here, but I just hope that at least the electorate as a whole will allow us to get on with the job of reforming the admittedly bloated and self-serving Brussels bureaucracy from within, because we certainly won't be able to do it from without.
Read more: thunderboat.boards.net/thread/75/brexit-discussion-on-bbc2#ixzz46lgaHF8K
Oh right. I thought you had some evidence base facts or something.
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Post by macwolfelee on Apr 24, 2016 18:16:46 GMT
I not only read it, I write it on a considered basis, not the knee-jerk reaction which you seem to favour. For your enlightenment, concern is not the same as fear. My principle is that co-operation is better than separation in almost all cases, and my concern is that in this case separation will have unwelcome consequences for us and the rest of the world. Your use of the word fear is emotive and inaccurate as well as mildly denigrating. It wasn't my intention to denigrate you mildly or indeed in any degree so can I firstly apologise if my banter has been misconstrued it was entirely unintentional.We can debate the semantics of the words concern or fear, though in the context you have been posting I would contend they effectively mean the same thing. I think I have made it plain that unlike you I have no concern about Europe only the UK and though I agree with your theory regarding separation being lesser than cooperation I don't believe that separation will actually ever occur as you believe,rather we always have and would trade with Europe in or out. You do me a disservice suggesting my reaction as knee jerk as I have been as consistent as you have. Can I finally ask you how change is going to be accomplished,how are we to enable reform of any kind by returning a yes vote when History proves otherwise what changes with a yes vote ?I would suggest nothing and that is the fault as far as I am concerned with the whole argument for remaining,all you can realistically offer me is more of the same. Yes it will be more of the same in the short term (by this I mean the foreseeable future). However the changes that you would seek are not the same as what I would. Mine are more in line with the ambitions for the EU held by several other member states, ie further integration including political which is the only way the EU will work efficiently instead of the present half-baked mess. Realistically I can't see this happening in my lifetime, because of the gung-ho Tory right whipping people up into unwarranted nationalism. But if we leave this process will be set back 50 years or even never happen, and heaven knows what will happen to Europe.
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