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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 13:57:29 GMT
Or this 2006 Tim Tyler
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:07:21 GMT
The Tyler hulls I remember from circa 2008 did not have a bolt in the rams head, it was a welded assembly. Therefore there must be a way of detaching the rudder to enable the top bearing to be changed by lifting the rudder shaft out. You are correct in as much as there must be a method of removing the rudder, there is, hovever, no bolt, Tyler Wilson tell me that they can't really diagnose by Internet, and did not offer to come out and do the job. They say that modifications may have been made over the years, and indicated that detailed boat specifications are not available. They advise that a boat should be taken out for inspection after such an incident. I have to agree with that. I consider that the boat may not be insured if I just carried on without the job being signed off by a currently qualified and insured professional. Tyler Wilson, is a company which build boats, regardless of individual names such as Jonathan Wilson, I am sufficiently experienced to know that I was speaking to senior management. The boat was built in Sheffield by the company now branded as Tyler Wilson. It is perfectly possible that there is another boat building company headed by Jonathan Wilson which is not in Sheffield, things might change over 20 years, its kind of irrelevant in 2021.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:08:09 GMT
However she did say there wasn’t a bolt visible. Like this 2004 Jonathan Wilson 😉 YES
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:22:46 GMT
Not a grub screw in the side which has been painted over ?
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Post by IainS on Nov 15, 2021 14:27:07 GMT
The Tyler hulls I remember from circa 2008 did not have a bolt in the rams head, it was a welded assembly. Therefore there must be a way of detaching the rudder to enable the top bearing to be changed by lifting the rudder shaft out. Without looking at Jo's rudder assembly, it's impossible to say what's there, as it may have been modified over the years. When we had a share boat, the ram's head became slack, and ended up being welded to the rudder stock, so that the rudder could not be removed without the services of an angle grinder or similar tool.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:29:30 GMT
The Tyler hulls I remember from circa 2008 did not have a bolt in the rams head, it was a welded assembly. Therefore there must be a way of detaching the rudder to enable the top bearing to be changed by lifting the rudder shaft out. You mean the rams head and the rudder shaft itself are all one piece? That seems bad practice. Not saying it's wrong but does seem rather poor design bearing in mind what can and does happen to rudders on canal boats Liverpool boats do a bolted on rudder blade but they are known to be quite low cost shells whereas I think Tyler Wilson are further up the list. I would expect either a taper with a vertical bolt or a D section with some sort of locking bolt through the boss. Or I suppose you could just drop the thing onto the rudder post and have a shear pin. I have not inspected many of these things and the only canal boats I have owned have been from more traditional fabricators so it's possible the all in one welded thing is just normal. Does seem odd though. One wonders if another modification might have been to weld the boss to the tapered part of the rudder shaft then fair it off so it looks like nothing there. and the bang was the weld cracking. I don't see why anyone would want to modify the taper system though as it's a good setup provided the materials are good quality.
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 15, 2021 14:31:05 GMT
I think “there must be a way of detaching the rudder” is slightly the wrong question. Rather, it should be “how was this thing assembled in the first place?”
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:33:53 GMT
I reckon a lateral shear pin arrangement ie a bolt right through which has been cut off and painted over to look tidy.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 15, 2021 14:33:59 GMT
Tyler Wilson isn't a "he", . . it's the trading name of two companies. Tylers, who build the hulls, and Wilsons who fit them out. You should have spoken to the people I spoke to the other day, the people who actually build the hulls, . . and rather than asking them if the boat should come out of the water, you should have been getting details of the rudder and stock assembly that would have been fitted to the hull at the works. In these days of manic arse covering against the possibility of future litigation, nobody is going to tell some complete stranger on the other end of a phone to go against advice they've had from someone supposedly trading as a marine engineer. Whoever you spoke to would have had to presume that the source of the advice was knowledgeable and competent, . . just like you did, . . until you started thinking about what he failed to check or do when he came out to your boat last Friday. Tyler Wilson are no more they both build shells Jonathan Wilson is the main shell builder, they don’t do fitouts, they build shells. I can’t see why the boat has to come out of the water unless the skeg or rudder and stock are bent/damaged. There are no bolts under the waterline, the only bolts are on the rudder bearing and the bolt that connects the Swan neck to the rudder stock and these can be removed and replaced while the boat is in the water. I’m trying to post a pic to show the setup of their current rudder assembly. Have put a link below to their rudder assy design to show the setup, or if someone can copy and add to the thread to help the discussion. imgur.com/a/srGbtHSThanks for that info, I didn't know the two companies had separated. When I rang them last Friday I used a mobile number I'd been given, got through to the workshop, and spoke with one of the workshop staff who actually put the hulls together. From those photos you've provided, the current rudder and stock assembly is no longer the Yarwoods/FMC pattern that Tylers did use at some time to something less substantial and without the skeg bar upright, although the one piece rudder stock has been retained. The 4 x bolt flange top bearing with the self-aligning bush has also replaced the previous Yarwoods style cast iron top bearing. Socks's boat is almost certainly old enough to have had the older Yarwoods style rudder/stock/skeg bar set-up when it was new, but she's said somewhere in another thread that not long before she bought the boat it had new sterngear, so we know that the rudder and the skeg bar upright would have to have come off to do that. Question is, was it all put back together as original, or was it mucked about with and changed to a two piece rudder and stock assembly with a bolted joining flange between the upper edge of the rudder and the bottom end of the ellum (rudder) tube. I had hoped that the so-called engineer who went out to the boat last Friday was going to provide an answer to that !
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:35:01 GMT
I think “there must be a way of detaching the rudder” is slightly the wrong question. Rather, it should be “how was this thing assembled in the first place?” Or "who was it that replaced the top bearing recently?"
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:44:47 GMT
I think “there must be a way of detaching the rudder” is slightly the wrong question. Rather, it should be “how was this thing assembled in the first place?” Or "who was it that replaced the top bearing recently?" I asked Thorne Boat builders in 2019 or 2000 to put an oval bearing on, which they did without removing the boat from the water. I asked if the boat had come out, they said no. Its 3 years ago, but presumably they must have got the ramshead off without damaging the apparatus. Ideally, someone will drive up in a white van tomorrow remove the tiller and pop everything back in to place, so at least I can test drive the steering, it could be just something popped out and a big hammer would sort it. The oval top bearing was not replaced, there was no top bearing, which is why I had one fitted.
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 14:46:26 GMT
The Swan neck must come off, as she says she had a new oval rudder bearing fitted when she bought the boat. She also says she can lift the Swan neck a couple of inches and drop it back down, then she says that when she moves the Swan neck it turns the rudder stock above the bearing but the actual rudder does not turn. TW weld their rudders to the stock, so the stock and rudder should move as one. If only the rudder stock is moving above the bearing and the rudder is not moving, the rudder stock must of snapped above the rudder. If this is the case she should be able to remove the Swan neck and part of the snapped stock completely leaving the Rudder and part of the snapped stock in situ.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 14:53:22 GMT
Well Tony did mention it might be flanged below the elum tube but would a 4 bolt flange just break off ? Seems improbable.
Maybe it's a tube setup with a pin ie the rudder stock is hollow at the top.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 15:04:38 GMT
10 pages..
joke.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 15, 2021 15:07:18 GMT
Well Tony did mention it might be flanged below the elum tube but would a 4 bolt flange just break off ? Seems improbable. A properly welded on 4x bolt flange wouldn't break off, . . but corroded/wasted bolts securing it would ! Of course, . . if the useless bugger who came out and looked at the boat last Friday had taken the trouble to find out what has broken, then nobody would need to be indulging in all this speculation and guesswork now. I wonder if he's on commission from RCR for every mug he delivers into their clutches ?
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