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Post by thebfg on Nov 15, 2021 2:16:14 GMT
It ain't half fun in here.
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Post by patty on Nov 15, 2021 6:37:25 GMT
It ain't half fun in here. I was trying to think of how to respond to the posts I'm not sure those are the words that describe accurately how I see the nature of this thread.....
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 15, 2021 7:01:30 GMT
Doing so at this point might possibly only add to the confusion, . . and there's been more than enough of that created already. As I said back on last Friday afternoon, the first step is to establish just how the rudder and stock assembly is made and put together on Socks's boat -- which is why I asked, twice, if there was a builder's plate anywhere on the boat, or if at least the date of build was known. When I spoke to the hull builders, Tylers, on Friday, they were inclined to think, as I did, that the ramshead could have come loose on its unkeyed locking taper on the top end of the rudder stock, . . but that might not be the case IF the boat has a two piece rudder assembly with a short stock bolted to a four-bolt flange on the upper edge of the rudder, and all but one of those bolts has sheared. The four-bolt flange arrangement is what my customer's Tyler built hull had, but he's not sure that it was the original rudder because there had been some damage and repairs in that area before he bought the boat. 🤯If you knew that on Friday, why did you post this on Saturday evening "One of my customers used to have a boat with a Tyler built hull - like Socks's - and he e-mailed me a sketch this morning showing the main details of the rudder assembly, . . so I now know pretty much what's likely to have happened, and what's needed to fix it", and then in response to some subsequent posts reiterate Saturdays post by highlighting it in Bold and linking to it on Sunday evening🤔 Surely it would have been more prudent to post what you have just posted to me now on Friday after your discussions with Tylers?🥴 I, for one would certainly be less confused by all of these developments.🤯 " Prudent" doesn't come into this, . . other than from the standpoint of trying to prevent Socks from becoming another 'out of pocket' victim of the general incompetence that emanates from so many canal boatyards and marinas, . . or the likes of RCR. The purpose of the comments, information, and suggestions that I've posted in this thread is to provide Socks with the assistance she's so very clearly in need of to get her boat fixed for the cost of an insurance claim that will be met in full by her insurers, rather than getting it fixed for a final bill that's going to run, quite unnecessarily, into a figure of several thousand pounds, . . of which she would probably end up having to meet a substantial portion herself. The purpose of the comments, information, and suggestions that I've posted in this thread is NOT to provide the small number of contributors to it with a comprehensive tutorial to fill in the yawning gaps in their knowledge of a subject they feel compelled to comment and advise on whilst plainly knowing sod all about.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 7:51:22 GMT
Calm down dear ... @twerp gave the essential initial advice, which you backed-up ... @socks has made the arrangements to @socks satisfaction and the job is in hand. We can all relax and leave it to @socks now Rog
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Post by JohnV on Nov 15, 2021 7:56:06 GMT
It ain't half fun in here. I was trying to think of how to respond to the posts I'm not sure those are the words that describe accurately how I see the nature of this thread..... Yup !!! go along with that Patty ...... but thebfg post will do unless I can think of a better phrase
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Post by brummieboy on Nov 15, 2021 9:16:23 GMT
Practice what you preach, Tony
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 9:41:56 GMT
I mean that there is no obvious nut holding the ramshead on. ... I assume that the bang and subsequent de linking of rudder and tiller is due to a bolt shearing. The rudder is still in the same place... As Tony did suggest perhaps this is bang was just the taper "unlocking". One of my boats has a taper at the top of the rudder post and the boss is internally tapered to match. No keyway just a taper. You align the steering stick as required, drop the tiller boss onto the taper then tighten down the central bolt until the taper locks itself up. I reckon if someone had done a top bearing and forgot to put the central bolt back on then you could have a partially locked taper which would be okay in most situations but under stress it might "unlock" making a bit of noise and you would find that the tiller/ramshead/etc would spin around and also be quite easy to just lift off. They are bloody heavy though so that's not a very good plan! If it was that it's an incredibly easy fix something like a M14 x 50 hex head bolt. Top ball bearings are also known to make banging noises when they start getting worn.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 15, 2021 10:16:36 GMT
1) The photo posted had a different ramshead design to mine, and I would say a better design. 2) I did have a completely new bearing collar fitted three years ago, not a replacement, the boatyard did not take the boat out of the water, which mystified me tbh. 3) I mean that there is no obvious nut holding the ramshead on. 4) I will try to speak to Tyler Wilson, but I don't hold out much hope. 5) The stock is in a tube underwater, which needs to be inspected for corrosion, and repaired if necessary. 6) I assume that the bang and subsequent de linking of rudder and tiller is due to a bolt shearing. The rudder is still in the same place, ie not twisted. 7) I will shine a torch down the stern, inside the Hull as maybe the stock goes down there, I don't know, I don't think so. 8) The boat engineer should have picked up on that. Taking the points above in turn :- 1) Not relevant to current issues. 2) ----------- ditto ---------------- 3) The ramshead is secured to the unkeyed locking taper at the top/upper end of the rudder sock. If you can't see the (hexagon) head of a bolt or machine screw there, then your ramshead will be retained on the rudderstock taper with a countersunk socket head bolt/machine screw through the round plate washer instead. 4) By all means do so -- but before you do, find the builders plate that I've been asking you about since last Friday, so that the hull and build details of the rudder and stock assembly can be identified from their records. 5) That shouldn't be so unless the original Tyler's type of fully welded rudder and stock assembly has been replaced at some time during the boat's life. 6) If the so-called 'engineer' who came out to you on Friday had checked and done what he should have done, then you would NOT have to be 'assuming' or guessing what has actually happened -- you would know ! 7) The rudder stock passes through a large diameter steel tube (4", or more I.D. on pleasure craft, 6" I.D. on commercial boats). The only bearing in that tube is the one at the upper end on the top of the counter -- there is no intermediate bearing iwo. the the lower end of that tube, which terminates on the underside of the counter bottom plating. 8) YES HE SHOULD, . . along with a lot of other things that he didn't bother to check on or mention before telling you that the boat would have to be docked or craned out, . . and pointing you, and your insurers, in the direction of a lot of unnecessary faffing about and an enormous bill from RCR. Something else that he wouldn't have mentioned, and probably doesn't know, is that the rudder and stock assembly, and the skeg and skeg bar assembly that Tylers build into their hulls is a scaled down but faithful copy of the rudder and skeg set-up that the likes of Yarwoods and FMC used on all the working boat hulls they used to produce at Northwich and Saltley. One very convenient feature of the Yarwoods/FMC/Tylers design is that in the event of ANY type of rudder and/or stock damage it is ALWAYS possible -- IF you know how -- to remove a damage rudder, for repairs or replacement, with the boat still afloat, and to re-fit it after repair, with the boat still afloat.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 11:18:37 GMT
I have spoken to Tyler Wilson, he advises me to get boat out of water to check for damage.
The Hull number is of no use to him.
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Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 15, 2021 12:20:23 GMT
I have spoken to Tyler Wilson, he advises me to get boat out of water to check for damage. The Hull number is of no use to him. Tyler Wilson isn't a "he", . . it's the trading name of two companies. Tylers, who build the hulls, and Wilsons who fit them out. You should have spoken to the people I spoke to the other day, the people who actually build the hulls, . . and rather than asking them if the boat should come out of the water, you should have been getting details of the rudder and stock assembly that would have been fitted to the hull at the works. In these days of manic arse covering against the possibility of future litigation, nobody is going to tell some complete stranger on the other end of a phone to go against advice they've had from someone supposedly trading as a marine engineer. Whoever you spoke to would have had to presume that the source of the advice was knowledgeable and competent, . . just like you did, . . until you started thinking about what he failed to check or do when he came out to your boat last Friday.
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pd1964
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Post by pd1964 on Nov 15, 2021 12:44:53 GMT
I have spoken to Tyler Wilson, he advises me to get boat out of water to check for damage. The Hull number is of no use to him. Tyler Wilson isn't a "he", . . it's the trading name of two companies. Tylers, who build the hulls, and Wilsons who fit them out. You should have spoken to the people I spoke to the other day, the people who actually build the hulls, . . and rather than asking them if the boat should come out of the water, you should have been getting details of the rudder and stock assembly that would have been fitted to the hull at the works. In these days of manic arse covering against the possibility of future litigation, nobody is going to tell some complete stranger on the other end of a phone to go against advice they've had from someone supposedly trading as a marine engineer. Whoever you spoke to would have had to presume that the source of the advice was knowledgeable and competent, . . just like you did, . . until you started thinking about what he failed to check or do when he came out to your boat last Friday. Tyler Wilson are no more they both build shells Jonathan Wilson is the main shell builder, they don’t do fitouts, they build shells. I can’t see why the boat has to come out of the water unless the skeg or rudder and stock are bent/damaged. There are no bolts under the waterline, the only bolts are on the rudder bearing and the bolt that connects the Swan neck to the rudder stock and these can be removed and replaced while the boat is in the water. I’m trying to post a pic to show the setup of their current rudder assembly. Have put a link below to their rudder assy design to show the setup, or if someone can copy and add to the thread to help the discussion. imgur.com/a/srGbtHS
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 15, 2021 13:21:20 GMT
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 15, 2021 13:23:06 GMT
However she did say there wasn’t a bolt visible.
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Post by Isambard Kingdom Brunel on Nov 15, 2021 13:42:53 GMT
The Tyler hulls I remember from circa 2008 did not have a bolt in the rams head, it was a welded assembly.
Therefore there must be a way of detaching the rudder to enable the top bearing to be changed by lifting the rudder shaft out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2021 13:51:12 GMT
However she did say there wasn’t a bolt visible. Like this 2004 Jonathan Wilson 😉
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