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Post by ianali on Aug 9, 2022 12:49:26 GMT
It's not about personal experience, it's about simply appreciating that we as a society ought to be helping those in need as a priority. There's nothing wrong with encouraging wealth creation provided we look after those who need a hand up as well. Rog Not enough people care. UK has gone to s... and no one gives a hoot about it. We have a winter coming where half of a pensioners/low paid workers income will be used for their energy/fuel bills while energy companies are making tens of billions more than usual. Governments lack of interest in this shows they don’t care, simple as that. Trouble is, the country has become so divided that the Tory’s know they can win the next election because there are enough people still doing ok. Wealth creation is fine, profiteering is another thing altogether.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Aug 9, 2022 12:51:14 GMT
The question is perhaps then ... what kind of society are we, when we are happy for our politicians to ignore the weakest amongst us ? Rog ETA I used to see the Labour party as the champions of the working classes, encouraging the 'evil' of capitalism to provide equality and fairness. Sadly that Labour party has gone. When the labour party was in power, was homelessness less of an issue? Was poverty less of an issue? I don't think so, although of course with the internet these days we are much more aware of what is going on out of our own eyesight, so it might SEEM worse. As I've said many times on here and elsewhere, Labour are simply Conservatives in red ties. We could for example not have had a policy of unrestricted immigration when we already had an acute housing shortage although I do accept that this was more to do with our eu membership than whichever party was in power at the time. We either need fewer people or more housing, neither should be beyond the powers of Government to bring about.
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Post by JohnV on Aug 9, 2022 12:59:24 GMT
trouble is often the simple answers turn out to be very large cans of worms.
Oil companies are making a fortune ....... but are also investing vast amounts from those profits in electric vehicle recharging infrastructure
Yes they are doing that to ensure they still make profits when they are no longer able to make a profit from petrol and diesel.
However if they were taxed heavily they wouldn't be installing the infrastructure and the government would have to to do it ......
That is if it could be argued hard enough that if we don't then we are in deep deep doodoo with inadequate infrastructure for electric vehicle changeover
If the argument is won that the money is needed for this I suspect that the value for money, of a government programme ..... need I say more ?
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Post by Jim on Aug 9, 2022 13:12:33 GMT
Because he has a good message. For him yes, clickbait for unscientific ignorant fools. Pay per click. What a prannock.
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Post by Jim on Aug 9, 2022 13:16:13 GMT
I think perhaps the country would be better run by someone who has a genuine drive , passion and ambition to improve the lot of the less fortunate in society. That seems to exclude career politicians. Rog No I disagree, good intentions alone are not good enough. There is no magic money tree to dole out to those less fortunate. You want to take money from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. So now there is no point in making lots of money, we’ll all just doss around doing the minimum. Or emigrate to a country that shows less resentment to people who have done well in life. Now where is the money for the less fortunate? So you need a much more intelligent strategy, and that requires a lot more than just good intentions. it's certainly a better starting point than "how much Dosh can I get for me and my mates by being a self interested lieing toe rag" aka Tory.
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Post by Jim on Aug 9, 2022 13:21:17 GMT
The question is perhaps then ... what kind of society are we, when we are happy for our politicians to ignore the weakest amongst us ? The problem is that some people cannot easily be helped. As I said, it is not all about money. One of the problems as I see it is that it has increasingly become seen as a "right" to have children regardless of any proposed means to support them. Have a baby - fine. Expect someone else to pay for it - fine. But only up to a point, and we are close to breaching that point. No society can function when there is too much of that going on. People have to take responibility for their own actions and life, up to a point at least. Obviously there are some who are quite unable to do so, and that is fair enough.
When questioning any behaviour, it is always good to contemplate what would happen if everyone followed the same proposed behavioural pattern. One also needs to consider how likely that is, otherwise Nige farige gets his way, All the Turks* in Turkey will come to England if we let them in the EU. *Choose any other nation you wish. Nige will cheer you for it.
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Post by Jim on Aug 9, 2022 13:26:46 GMT
When the labour party was in power, was homelessness less of an issue? Was poverty less of an issue? I don't think so, although of course with the internet these days we are much more aware of what is going on out of our own eyesight, so it might SEEM worse. As I've said many times on here and elsewhere, Labour are simply Conservatives in red ties. We could for example not have had a policy of unrestricted immigration when we already had an acute housing shortage although I do accept that this was more to do with our eu membership than whichever party was in power at the time. We either need fewer people or more housing, neither should be beyond the powers of Government to bring about. Nowt to do with the EU or refugees. It's about a shortage of houses. We have enough builders, the block is nimby concerns about them being built next door to by those already comfortably ensconced. The chicane is Planning Permission.
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Post by ianali on Aug 9, 2022 13:34:48 GMT
trouble is often the simple answers turn out to be very large cans of worms. Oil companies are making a fortune ....... but are also investing vast amounts from those profits in electric vehicle recharging infrastructure Yes they are doing that to ensure they still make profits when they are no longer able to make a profit from petrol and diesel. However if they were taxed heavily they wouldn't be installing the infrastructure and the government would have to to do it ...... That is if it could be argued hard enough that if we don't then we are in deep deep doodoo with inadequate infrastructure for electric vehicle changeover If the argument is won that the money is needed for this I suspect that the value for money, of a government programme ..... need I say more ? I know your taking what you might call a balanced view. I can’t see anything but blatant profiteering by these companies though. As I said earlier, there’s profit and then there is taking the pee...
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Post by JohnV on Aug 9, 2022 14:36:32 GMT
trouble is often the simple answers turn out to be very large cans of worms. Oil companies are making a fortune ....... but are also investing vast amounts from those profits in electric vehicle recharging infrastructure Yes they are doing that to ensure they still make profits when they are no longer able to make a profit from petrol and diesel. However if they were taxed heavily they wouldn't be installing the infrastructure and the government would have to to do it ...... That is if it could be argued hard enough that if we don't then we are in deep deep doodoo with inadequate infrastructure for electric vehicle changeover If the argument is won that the money is needed for this I suspect that the value for money, of a government programme ..... need I say more ? I know your taking what you might call a balanced view. I can’t see anything but blatant profiteering by these companies though. As I said earlier, there’s profit and then there is taking the pee... you are undoubtably right ..... it's just I dread the thought of what sort of infrastructure we would get if the government (colour immaterial) organised it
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Post by JohnV on Aug 9, 2022 14:53:22 GMT
No I disagree, good intentions alone are not good enough. There is no magic money tree to dole out to those less fortunate. You want to take money from the rich and give to the poor? Fine. So now there is no point in making lots of money, we’ll all just doss around doing the minimum. Or emigrate to a country that shows less resentment to people who have done well in life. Now where is the money for the less fortunate? So you need a much more intelligent strategy, and that requires a lot more than just good intentions. it's certainly a better starting point than "how much Dosh can I get for me and my mates by being a self interested lieing toe rag" aka Tory. I am constantly amazed by your naiive faith in the probity of the Labour party ........ you forget they are politicians and it's worth looking at not only where they went to school but where they are sending their children
some of us remember the of Wilson and Callaghan and the then increasing control of the Unions and through them the Labour party by Communist and Trotskyite activists (if you don't believe me go read the percentage of far left members on the executive of such unions as AEU NUM TGWU NUR Union of Postoffice Workers etc etc .... the details can be found easily enough, from memory at one time there were 10 communists on the executive commitee of the TGWU)
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 9, 2022 15:56:32 GMT
trouble is often the simple answers turn out to be very large cans of worms. Oil companies are making a fortune ....... but are also investing vast amounts from those profits in electric vehicle recharging infrastructure Yes they are doing that to ensure they still make profits when they are no longer able to make a profit from petrol and diesel. However if they were taxed heavily they wouldn't be installing the infrastructure and the government would have to to do it ...... That is if it could be argued hard enough that if we don't then we are in deep deep doodoo with inadequate infrastructure for electric vehicle changeover If the argument is won that the money is needed for this I suspect that the value for money, of a government programme ..... need I say more ? I know your taking what you might call a balanced view. I can’t see anything but blatant profiteering by these companies though. As I said earlier, there’s profit and then there is taking the pee... I think it is overly simplistic and actually wrong to blame the oil companies. They put their goods on the open market, which is a global market, and sell to the highest bidder just the same as anyone else would. They don’t set the price. The problem more lies with the middle men, the traders in “futures” who make a fortune out of buying and selling without actually contributing anything worthwhile. And Putin of course! There isn’t an easy answer unless you want to dismantle the whole global market thing, which is not really something the uk could do unilaterally.
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Post by Jim on Aug 9, 2022 16:30:25 GMT
it's certainly a better starting point than "how much Dosh can I get for me and my mates by being a self interested lieing toe rag" aka Tory. I am constantly amazed by your naiive faith in the probity of the Labour party ........ you forget they are politicians and it's worth looking at not only where they went to school but where they are sending their children
some of us remember the of Wilson and Callaghan and the then increasing control of the Unions and through them the Labour party by Communist and Trotskyite activists (if you don't believe me go read the percentage of far left members on the executive of such unions as AEU NUM TGWU NUR Union of Postoffice Workers etc etc .... the details can be found easily enough, from memory at one time there were 10 communists on the executive commitee of the TGWU)
As I said John, they are coming from a better starting point and general aim. You could be right with your numbers on the union executives, except it's not enough. The gap between the floor and ceiling, pay wise has grown out of all proportion, no doubt Shell etc execs pay is tagged to profit, not to any "work" done. It's blatant greed. Windfall tax 'em till they squeak. We should have more companies like John Lewis, AFAIK floor to ceiling pay is 1 to 20 ratio.
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Post by ianali on Aug 9, 2022 16:57:02 GMT
I know your taking what you might call a balanced view. I can’t see anything but blatant profiteering by these companies though. As I said earlier, there’s profit and then there is taking the pee... I think it is overly simplistic and actually wrong to blame the oil companies. They put their goods on the open market, which is a global market, and sell to the highest bidder just the same as anyone else would. They don’t set the price. The problem more lies with the middle men, the traders in “futures” who make a fortune out of buying and selling without actually contributing anything worthwhile. And Putin of course! There isn’t an easy answer unless you want to dismantle the whole global market thing, which is not really something the uk could do unilaterally. I think it’s quite simply that the oil companies are profiteering and don’t give a monkeys about people’s suffering. I agree about the middle men, just as bad.
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Post by ianali on Aug 9, 2022 16:58:52 GMT
I am constantly amazed by your naiive faith in the probity of the Labour party ........ you forget they are politicians and it's worth looking at not only where they went to school but where they are sending their children
some of us remember the of Wilson and Callaghan and the then increasing control of the Unions and through them the Labour party by Communist and Trotskyite activists (if you don't believe me go read the percentage of far left members on the executive of such unions as AEU NUM TGWU NUR Union of Postoffice Workers etc etc .... the details can be found easily enough, from memory at one time there were 10 communists on the executive commitee of the TGWU)
As I said John, they are coming from a better starting point and general aim. You could be right with your numbers on the union executives, except it's not enough. The gap between the floor and ceiling, pay wise has grown out of all proportion, no doubt Shell etc execs pay is tagged to profit, not to any "work" done. It's blatant greed. Windfall tax 'em till they squeak. We should have more companies like John Lewis, AFAIK floor to ceiling pay is 1 to 20 ratio. Not happy with the John Lewis boss. Seems to be saying that it’s partly my fault that inflation is rocketing, particularly in the UK. Think she’s suggesting that I should go stack shelves for her...Edit to add google says JL boss earned well over a million a year past few years.. your 1 to 20 ratio means there lowest payed earn 50k plus then?
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Post by Jim on Aug 9, 2022 17:05:05 GMT
As I said John, they are coming from a better starting point and general aim. You could be right with your numbers on the union executives, except it's not enough. The gap between the floor and ceiling, pay wise has grown out of all proportion, no doubt Shell etc execs pay is tagged to profit, not to any "work" done. It's blatant greed. Windfall tax 'em till they squeak. We should have more companies like John Lewis, AFAIK floor to ceiling pay is 1 to 20 ratio. Not happy with the John Lewis boss. Seems to be saying that it’s partly my fault that inflation is rocketing, particularly in the UK. Think she’s suggesting that I should go stack shelves for her...Edit to add google says JL boss earned well over a million a year past few years.. your 1 to 20 ratio means there lowest payed earn 50k plus then? maybe JL pay ratio has changed, they used to have some limit to the ceiling.
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