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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 29, 2016 20:42:51 GMT
My life as an off grid liveaboard is blighted by the issue of batteries. Or more specifically; regularly having to throw them away.
I won't tell the whole sorry tale, it would probably send you to sleep. I'll just include snippets I think are relevant:
My first set of batteries were wrecked by constant under charging. No surprise there, being a new lifeaboard.
After this I started asking lots of questions over the road. Slowly but surely I started to gain a basic knowledge of the subject.
My power usage is very low. I have a gas fridge, 5 watt lights, only ever have 1 on at a time. I listen to the radio a lot, backlight off on the t.v. draws 4 watts. I don't watch a lot of t.v. but when I do it draws 16 watts. My little netbook draws 12 watts. I'm possibly about as power efficient as I could possibly be and calculate that I use under 30 AH daily. For this reason I saw no point in having (and replacing!) 2 leisure batteries. I now have one 110 AH leisure battery.
I have 375 watts of solar which is probably massive overkill. I decided on that amount because I had the roof space, they were cheap, and I reckoned that they would prolong the life of my battery.
I rarely if ever have to run the engine, or my genny, between March and October.
More recently: I bought a new battery in November last year. A cheap sealed jobbie. Now, 12 months later, I think it's knackered. I charged the battery yesterday as I do every day, when there is insufficient solar. I did it with the genny and when I switched it off 1.5 amps were going into the 110 AH battery. Not quite fully charged, but not far off. This morning, after a calculated use of 10 AH last night my volt meter showed 12.2. So, it seems my battery is sulphated to the point that its capacity is down to around 20-30 AH.
I'm getting quite pissed off with throwing batteries away every year. I thought it might be better to pay a bit more, get a Trojan one. At leas then I can do equalisation charges.
What do you chaps think?
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Post by PaulG2 on Oct 29, 2016 20:51:47 GMT
Well, Trojan does advertise that their products allow the most sensations of all brands... Oh, wait, you said Trojan BATTERIES.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 29, 2016 20:55:15 GMT
In answer to your OP, yes.
I've found "leisure" batteries to be rubbish, despite being well charged, half their life on shore power etc. They just seem to die quite quickly.
Trojans are in a different league. They are well made, solid and seem to take a fair bit of abuse. They can, at a pinch, be taken down to 20%SoC without too much damage.
The only thing to say is that they do have to be charged at a fairly high voltage (say 14.8v) and will sulphate if routinely undercharged. But provided you charge them properly, they last much, much better than "leisure", for not much more.
If I were you I'd get 2 x T105s which will give you 225AH at 12v. Maybe more than you need but much better value than buying a single 12v one.
Oh and just bear in mind that their capacity is quite poor for the first few cycles. They reach full capacity after about 50 cycles, which is just about when "leisure" batteries are knackered!
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Post by Graham on Oct 29, 2016 21:03:12 GMT
Ricco the thing my mind is asking how did you kill a new battery in under a year. Being a sealed battery were the charge voltages to high and has it been boiled dry.
Do you know what the charge voltages are for
the solar panel controller? plus make and type
Your charger voltages? plus make and type
The 6 volt Trojan Batteries normally talked about are IIRC 225 Ah now a day's use is the order of 15% at 30Ah. My gut is saying without a lot of care you could kill an expensive set off batteries.
Lets have the info I have asked for and lets see what the group of us can come up with.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 29, 2016 21:24:03 GMT
Ricco the thing my mind is asking how did you kill a new battery in under a year. Being a sealed battery were the charge voltages to high and has it been boiled dry. Do you know what the charge voltages are for the solar panel controller? plus make and type Your charger voltages? plus make and type The 6 volt Trojan Batteries normally talked about are IIRC 225 Ah now a day's use is the order of 15% at 30Ah. My gut is saying without a lot of care you could kill an expensive set off batteries. Lets have the info I have asked for and lets see what the group of us can come up with. OK. The recommended charging voltage for my battery is 14.4. My alternator charges at this, as does the Tracer solar controller, although this drops to a 13.6 float voltage when the batteries are full, or fullish. I've set both the bulk and absorption charges on my Sterling Pro Ultra charger at 14.4, when I use the genny. Cheers.
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Post by tonyqj on Oct 29, 2016 21:41:01 GMT
In answer to your OP, yes. I've found "leisure" batteries to be rubbish, despite being well charged, half their life on shore power etc. They just seem to die quite quickly. Trojans are in a different league. They are well made, solid and seem to take a fair bit of abuse. They can, at a pinch, be taken down to 20%SoC without too much damage. The only thing to say is that they do have to be charged at a fairly high voltage (say 14.8v) and will sulphate if routinely undercharged. But provided you charge them properly, they last much, much better than "leisure", for not much more. If I were you I'd get 2 x T105s which will give you 225AH at 12v. Maybe more than you need but much better value than buying a single 12v one. Oh and just bear in mind that their capacity is quite poor for the first few cycles. They reach full capacity after about 50 cycles, which is just about when "leisure" batteries are knackered! ^^^^ This
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2016 21:56:35 GMT
My life as an off grid liveaboard is blighted by the issue of batteries. Or more specifically; regularly having to throw them away. I won't tell the whole sorry tale, it would probably send you to sleep. I'll just include snippets I think are relevant: My first set of batteries were wrecked by constant under charging. No surprise there, being a new lifeaboard. After this I started asking lots of questions over the road. Slowly but surely I started to gain a basic knowledge of the subject. My power usage is very low. I have a gas fridge, 5 watt lights, only ever have 1 on at a time. I listen to the radio a lot, backlight off on the t.v. draws 4 watts. I don't watch a lot of t.v. but when I do it draws 16 watts. My little netbook draws 12 watts. I'm possibly about as power efficient as I could possibly be and calculate that I use under 30 AH daily. For this reason I saw no point in having (and replacing!) 2 leisure batteries. I now have one 110 AH leisure battery. I have 375 watts of solar which is probably massive overkill. I decided on that amount because I had the roof space, they were cheap, and I reckoned that they would prolong the life of my battery. I rarely if ever have to run the engine, or my genny, between March and October. More recently: I bought a new battery in November last year. A cheap sealed jobbie. Now, 12 months later, I think it's knackered. I charged the battery yesterday as I do every day, when there is insufficient solar. I did it with the genny and when I switched it off 1.5 amps were going into the 110 AH battery. Not quite fully charged, but not far off. This morning, after a calculated use of 10 AH last night my volt meter showed 12.2. So, it seems my battery is sulphated to the point that its capacity is down to around 20-30 AH. I'm getting quite pissed off with throwing batteries away every year. I thought it might be better to pay a bit more, get a Trojan one. At leas then I can do equalisation charges. What do you chaps think? With that sort of solar input, get a couple of t105's (as nick says), or similar, crowns. What controller have you got on the solar?
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Post by Graham on Oct 29, 2016 22:06:40 GMT
OK if you are going to buy Trojans which is Nick's favourite, you will need to be able to charge at at least 14.8V and equalise at IIRC for the trojans at 15.5V
With a usage daily of 30Ah a day you will only use 13.33% of the charge. Now there is a distinct possibility that recharging from such a low level DoD will lead to corrosion of the positive plate and lead to a shortened battery life. If you leave the battery to discharge to 30/50% DoD that will take 3 days. If you do that it is I believe with the Trojans important to equalise them at the end of the charge to get the last of the sulphate off the plates.
It is a difficult, the 6V 225Ah Trojans are an attractive price but I would suggest too large for your usage. I would suggest you look for a semideep/deep cycle battery with a capacity of 100/110Ah. I can see an early demise because of sulphation using 225Ah batteries.
I would suggest that you also need to install some form of battery monitor system. The trouble is there is not one unit that is perfect where the system is off grid and relies on generators in the winter. The one thing you do need to be able to accurately do is check is that the charge current has got down to below 1% of capacity before the charging system goes to float, solar, alternator or mains charger. Now you mention measuring it at 1.5A could that be the output of the mains charger?
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Post by Graham on Oct 29, 2016 22:51:14 GMT
The best price I can find for 2 Trojan T105s (225Ah) is £217 approx. Now that suggests to me they have got to last three years to break even for you Ricco.
I am wondering how long Nick or Tony will guarantee them to last under your regime?
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 29, 2016 23:17:36 GMT
OK if you are going to buy Trojans which is Nick's favourite, you will need to be able to charge at at least 14.8V and equalise at IIRC for the trojans at 15.5V With a usage daily of 30Ah a day you will only use 13.33% of the charge. Now there is a distinct possibility that recharging from such a low level DoD will lead to corrosion of the positive plate and lead to a shortened battery life. If you leave the battery to discharge to 30/50% DoD that will take 3 days. If you do that it is I believe with the Trojans important to equalise them at the end of the charge to get the last of the sulphate off the plates. It is a difficult, the 6V 225Ah Trojans are an attractive price but I would suggest too large for your usage. I would suggest you look for a semideep/deep cycle battery with a capacity of 100/110Ah. I can see an early demise because of sulphation using 225Ah batteries. I would suggest that you also need to install some form of battery monitor system. The trouble is there is not one unit that is perfect where the system is off grid and relies on generators in the winter. The one thing you do need to be able to accurately do is check is that the charge current has got down to below 1% of capacity before the charging system goes to float, solar, alternator or mains charger. Now you mention measuring it at 1.5A could that be the output of the mains charger? I take the point to some extent, however my real world experience is that we normally charge the trojans using the alternator, which gives out ~14.5v maximum. Occasionally, if I remember, I'll run the travelpower / Combi to finish at 14.8v but often we go days or weeks without doing that. Yes I think a little bit of sulphation results but after say a couple of weeks if I give it 14.8v for a while that seems to fix it. The batteries are now nearly 3 years old and I think I have had to do "proper" equalisation only 2 or 3 times. yes he could get a 110AH 12v Trojan but at ~£170 it seems expensive when as you say you can get twice the capacity for a little over £200 in the form of 2 T105s. i think he could get away with charging every 2 or 3 days provided there is means to get the voltage up to 14.8 or so at the end of the charge, and solar is a good way to be able to do that out of the worst of winter - you don't need much current, maybe 5A or less. Presuming you can adjust then charge voltage on the solar controller. Even if he does charge every day (which solar will do) and even if this does result in sub-optimal life due to positive plate corrosion, i still think they will last much, much better than the cheapo leisure ones which, from the sound of it, are not just a bit down in capacity but totally knackered.
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Post by Graham on Oct 29, 2016 23:54:09 GMT
OK if you are going to buy Trojans which is Nick's favourite, you will need to be able to charge at at least 14.8V and equalise at IIRC for the trojans at 15.5V With a usage daily of 30Ah a day you will only use 13.33% of the charge. Now there is a distinct possibility that recharging from such a low level DoD will lead to corrosion of the positive plate and lead to a shortened battery life. If you leave the battery to discharge to 30/50% DoD that will take 3 days. If you do that it is I believe with the Trojans important to equalise them at the end of the charge to get the last of the sulphate off the plates. It is a difficult, the 6V 225Ah Trojans are an attractive price but I would suggest too large for your usage. I would suggest you look for a semideep/deep cycle battery with a capacity of 100/110Ah. I can see an early demise because of sulphation using 225Ah batteries. I would suggest that you also need to install some form of battery monitor system. The trouble is there is not one unit that is perfect where the system is off grid and relies on generators in the winter. The one thing you do need to be able to accurately do is check is that the charge current has got down to below 1% of capacity before the charging system goes to float, solar, alternator or mains charger. Now you mention measuring it at 1.5A could that be the output of the mains charger? I take the point to some extent, however my real world experience is that we normally charge the trojans using the alternator, which gives out ~14.5v maximum. Occasionally, if I remember, I'll run the travelpower / Combi to finish at 14.8v but often we go days or weeks without doing that. Yes I think a little bit of sulphation results but after say a couple of weeks if I give it 14.8v for a while that seems to fix it. The batteries are now nearly 3 years old and I think I have had to do "proper" equalisation only 2 or 3 times. yes he could get a 110AH 12v Trojan but at ~£170 it seems expensive when as you say you can get twice the capacity for a little over £200 in the form of 2 T105s. i think he could get away with charging every 2 or 3 days provided there is means to get the voltage up to 14.8 or so at the end of the charge, and solar is a good way to be able to do that out of the worst of winter - you don't need much current, maybe 5A or less. Presuming you can adjust then charge voltage on the solar controller. Even if he does charge every day (which solar will do) and even if this does result in sub-optimal life due to positive plate corrosion, i still think they will last much, much better than the cheapo leisure ones which, from the sound of it, are not just a bit down in capacity but totally knackered. Nick, you are I believe would be called a leisure boater using the boat intermittently, you have a heavy electric usage. The batteries have the advantage of spending time on shoreline at the marina and you have a 150A alternator. Ricco is I believe a live-aboard CCer. Thus he has to rely on a petrol, I suspect, generator to power a mains charger, his solar panels and on the days when he cruises his alternator, size unknown. Thus he has minimal charging facilities and a minimal electrical usage, stated at 30Ahs a day. I don't feel the Trojan T105s (225Ah) used in such a low usage situation will be an economical result. Could you answer the following:- How long do you expect the Trojans on your boat to last? How long do you expect Trojan T105s to last on Ricco's boat being under used, with likely positive plate corrosion and sulfation of the plates and minimal charging facilities? How much extra is it going to cost Ricco to equalise the Trojans in petrol and wear and tear on his generator?
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Post by Graham on Oct 30, 2016 0:11:22 GMT
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Post by smileypete on Oct 30, 2016 1:39:51 GMT
Sounds like the existing sealed batteries may have not been charged adequately, there's been loads on this topic back at CWDF. www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=68885www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=50218www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=55939Some simple tips on batt monitoring and charging: 1) Batteries in frequent use need a FULL charge at least weekly - other charging can be near full as practicable. 2) SO, what is a FULL charge, then? To paraphrase 'The Battery FAQ' (link): a) Charge voltage has reached the correct level as required by the manufacturer or specialist supplier. b ) Charge current has tailed off to a steady low level, usually less than 1 to 2% of batt capacity in Ah - may take 6 to 8 hours! c) If a non sealed battery, it helps if the battery acid is fizzing gently at the end - a quick peek once in a blue moon will do. 3) Recharge when the batt voltage no longer recovers above 12.2V, or say 12.1V if running a few LED lights or 12V fridge. If the inverter starts beeping it's definitely time to recharge! 4) IMPORTANT: Safe handling precautions can be found at The Battery FAQ via the link above. That's about it really... Note that it's the manufacturers recommended charging voltage that's important, ISTR the Sterling manual is misleading if not downright wrong. The el cheapo off-brand batts pose a problem as the original manufacturer is unknown, and the direct supplier (mr chandler) may not be the most technical person.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 30, 2016 7:54:16 GMT
Thanks for all the replies. Actually the cost of replacing a cheapo battery once a year isn't too bad. It's all the messing around. Borrowing a car, lugging the thing down the towpath, then getting the thing in place on the boat, which is more than awkward.
The Trojan I had in mind was the 27TMX. This would be a more simple replacement, no changing of wiring needed, and it's exactly the right size to fit in my battery box.
I'm aware that Trojan recommend charging at 14.85. My alternator and solar are fixed at 14.4. Trojan recommend a lower float voltage though so is it not the case that, given enough time, that these charging methods should be adequate? The battery charger is adjustable but I really can't see myself running the generator for hours during strong sunshine, seems like madness!
I just don't understand why I'm having this problem. I went on Holiday in January until March. From then onwards my big solar overkill ensured that the only time the batteries weren't as charged as they could possibly be was during the night. As recently as last week, when we had a fair amount of sunshine, my solar regulator meter was often in float, charge into the batteries restricted to half an amp or so more than any load I was applying. I'm wondering if the battery was a dud to start with but if I replace with the same, I might be in exactly the same position next year.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 30, 2016 8:06:27 GMT
We had 2 sets of cheapo leisure batteries. They both started playing up after about 6 months of leisure use and were dead after 2 years. Despite spending a good bit of their time on shore power float, and when we are on the boat we typically cruise 7 or 8 hours a day. I just think they are rubbish and not fit for purpose.
Anyway the 27TMX sounds like a good idea. What model of solar controller do you have?
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