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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 8:28:31 GMT
I suspect nearly all are. however the point was that the polish have had great pilots and there is no reason for them not to be now. However let us bear in mind that the attributes that make a great WW2 pilot are not the same as those that make a great airline pilot. Something to do with the "right stuff" being the "wrong stuff". Anyway be careful what you wish for. According to MoL pilots don't have to do much as the planes are so highly automated. He will think it a cunning plan to recruit dead polish pilots to fill the other seat at minimal cost (just the cost of some formaldehyde). That was indeed a bit of a 'faux pas' on his part. What a stupid thing to say (and not realising you were being filmed saying it) when the one thing he needed was to get them on side. Personally I dont think he deserves to survive as CEO. Lots of CEO's have fallen on their sword for much lesser company debacles.
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Post by Telemachus on Sept 28, 2017 9:10:16 GMT
I am very pleased ( no, smug actually) to be able to say that whilst I fly quite a lot, I have never been on a Ryanair flight and hope never to do so in the future. Then you have missed the experience. I've been on many Ryanair flights, usually between Tampere (Finland) and Stansted. No complaints from me. Always on time, luggage always arrives (as it's point-to-point with no changes). Competent pilots. Cabin crew scratch-card salesgirls who probably wouldn't have a clue what to do if the plane was going to crash, and who should really learn not to admit drunks onto any flight. I tried to sleep and usually nodded off just after take off and woke up 15mins before landing, head against sweatshirt + jacket made into soft pillow against window. Usually 25 - 40 Euros return Finland to England. However, it's not a realistic model, is it? Employees need fair wages and fair working conditions. Plane tickets are vastly cheaper than 27 years ago - then a cheap tickets London-Helsinki return was 400 Euros. Now you're looking at around 260 Euros for the same (I've seen 120 Euros just last week). Well that's the point. The service is superficially OK most of the time. But at what long term cost? I don't want to support the race to the bottom in terms of workers' conditions. Insight from Ryanair HQ
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Post by Clinton Cool on Sept 28, 2017 10:59:30 GMT
In terms of low prices being the result of poor working conditions we have a bit of a dichotomy. If conditions at Ryanair were better with higher wages their flights would be more expensive. It's likely that less people would fly. It's certain that less people who themselves suffer from poor working conditions and low wages would be able to afford to fly at all. Unless of course, their own working conditions improve, and they themselves receive higher wages. If everyone with poor conditions and low wages were catapulted into the decent conditions and wages group everything they buy would become more expensive. Because, unless you adopt a pure communist model, it's impossible to regulate company profit margins. Higher wages costs equal higher consumer prices. The result would be that those who were previously relaively poor one day on low wages would be equally relatively poor the following day, on higher wages.
This isn't in support of 'the race to the bottom' but hopefully explains a little, how things are rather more complicated than they may appear to be.
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Post by Telemachus on Sept 28, 2017 12:52:39 GMT
In terms of low prices being the result of poor working conditions we have a bit of a dichotomy. If conditions at Ryanair were better with higher wages their flights would be more expensive. It's likely that less people would fly. It's certain that less people who themselves suffer from poor working conditions and low wages would be able to afford to fly at all. Unless of course, their own working conditions improve, and they themselves receive higher wages. If everyone with poor conditions and low wages were catapulted into the decent conditions and wages group everything they buy would become more expensive. Because, unless you adopt a pure communist model, it's impossible to regulate company profit margins. Higher wages costs equal higher consumer prices. The result would be that those who were previously relaively poor one day on low wages would be equally relatively poor the following day, on higher wages. This isn't in support of 'the race to the bottom' but hopefully explains a little, how things are rather more complicated than they may appear to be. Things are complicated, but you miss a few points such as Ryanair's large profit margin - some of which could be spent on the workforce rather than gifted to shareholders. And is very cheap air travel actually a good thing? Encouraging folk to travel on a whim, burning fossil fuels in the process. And how much would it actually cost for Ryanair to treat its pilots and cabin crew with some respect, rather than trying to blame them for their corporate failures and making out they are the enemy? i take the point about the extra cost to the poor passengers, but for many people, such trips are not a basic essential, they are an unnecessary luxury. And again I say it is just a race to the bottom - the same as we see in so many other areas in this country - utilities, food etc. The argument you make is the same one that is made against raising the minimum wage. But in general, I think it is specious. It's interesting how different countries value different categories of employees. If you have ever watched "Wanted down under" it's surprising how is Australia, seemingly poorly qualified manual / service workers get quite a reasonable wage not that much less than very well qualified ones. This country has it all wrong where we pay people so little that the government has to top up their income. It is state subsidy of certain sectors of business.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Sept 28, 2017 14:26:29 GMT
In terms of low prices being the result of poor working conditions we have a bit of a dichotomy. If conditions at Ryanair were better with higher wages their flights would be more expensive. It's likely that less people would fly. It's certain that less people who themselves suffer from poor working conditions and low wages would be able to afford to fly at all. Unless of course, their own working conditions improve, and they themselves receive higher wages. If everyone with poor conditions and low wages were catapulted into the decent conditions and wages group everything they buy would become more expensive. Because, unless you adopt a pure communist model, it's impossible to regulate company profit margins. Higher wages costs equal higher consumer prices. The result would be that those who were previously relaively poor one day on low wages would be equally relatively poor the following day, on higher wages. This isn't in support of 'the race to the bottom' but hopefully explains a little, how things are rather more complicated than they may appear to be. Things are complicated, but you miss a few points such as Ryanair's large profit margin - some of which could be spent on the workforce rather than gifted to shareholders. And is very cheap air travel actually a good thing? Encouraging folk to travel on a whim, burning fossil fuels in the process. And how much would it actually cost for Ryanair to treat its pilots and cabin crew with some respect, rather than trying to blame them for their corporate failures and making out they are the enemy? i take the point about the extra cost to the poor passengers, but for many people, such trips are not a basic essential, they are an unnecessary luxury. And again I say it is just a race to the bottom - the same as we see in so many other areas in this country - utilities, food etc. The argument you make is the same one that is made against raising the minimum wage. But in general, I think it is specious. It's interesting how different countries value different categories of employees. If you have ever watched "Wanted down under" it's surprising how is Australia, seemingly poorly qualified manual / service workers get quite a reasonable wage not that much less than very well qualified ones. This country has it all wrong where we pay people so little that the government has to top up their income. It is state subsidy of certain sectors of business. I did make the point that it's impossible for governments to regulate profit margins; unless it's prepared to do away with most private trading: communism. Shareholders expect their businesses to succeed as much as possible in their market. This applies equally to Ryanair, and every other company in every other sector. As for Australians, I'm fortunate enough to have spent a fair amount of time in their company. One advantage they have is large stocks of valuable minerals and ores, and less people to share this wealth amongst. A manual worker at a mine or similar may well earn AUD 120,000 p.a. For this they have to live in what are basically camps, away from friends and families, in areas people wouldn't otherwise choose to spend their lives. A teacher will earn 80-120,000. Sounds great, until you go to the supermarket where a loaf of bread costs 3 dollars, a lettuce 3 dollars, a packet of muesli 6 dollars and a pint in a local will set you back 12 dollars. Want to buy a house? you'd better have at least 500,000, and not only if you want to live in Sydney or Perth. Having said that the standard of living overall is probably higher in Australia, but not by as much as some people think. Back to regulating company profits: One way this could be done without communism is by taxing them higher, a la Corbyn. It remains to be seen whether this could work in practise.
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Post by peterboat on Sept 28, 2017 15:01:26 GMT
Why don't Ryanair advertise for pilots in Poland, pay them the minimum wage? It seems to be a successful model in other businesses... Ryanair is quite a multi-national employee. If you are a Brit, you tend to go for EasyJet. If you are Johnny Foreigner you tend to go for Cryanair. But then, having gained some experience, improved your Inggerish, you find that you can get a job with a proper airline. Hence the high turnover. I have always called them urinal air!! it describes them perfectly
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 15:17:51 GMT
I was just pointing out that it may pay to be aware that if you now have a ticket for a Ryanair plane there's no guarantee at all that the first one may turn up, let alone the return one. I think the main issue is that they have not been putting passengers on other airlines' flights. I have read that by law they are obliged to - but even I am not sure if this is true. I have been put on a different airline's plane sometimes, in the case of cancellation/lateness/overbooking - I don't know if they actually pay the other airline or just have a friendly agreement, eg. we did one for you so you can do one for us later. If Ryanair have not been meeting their legal (and moral) obligations then they indeed should be 'taken to the cleaners' for compensation and shut down/outlawed by the CAA/Government/ EU. See, they come in useful sometimes eh?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 15:25:55 GMT
Not really - but the EU exists and Ryanair is based in Ireland which is in the EU (one of the poorer countries - like Wales and Scotland - hoping to suck in money from the richer countries via the Brussels Bureaucraps). It just goes to show the EU can't handle things that are going askew. What would you expect the EU to do in the immediate short term?? Manufacture pilots? The fault for this lies fairly and squarely with the geezer that does the Ryan air holiday rostas (yer I know it wont in reality be just one individual) and MOL who has pissed his pilots off big style.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2017 15:36:56 GMT
I would expect the EU to give Mick O'Leary and the other shareholders a good kicking in the bollocks. A humungous fine for not informing passengers of their rights, for not assisting passengers whose planes have been cancelled, for not putting passengers on other airlines' planes. An investigation into how this has happened all of a sudden. Ryanair's shareholders should be made to feel really, really sorry for all this - and the only way for this to happen is to take their money away from them. Oh - and a good kick in the bollocks (for real) could be televised. Also an investigation into how the EU has been letting Ryan O'Air-to-be-sure get away with this for so long. (I'm actually neutral in all this, but am interested. It's a bitter-sweet matter. I'm not totally against Ryanair's methods, but being socialist-minded I don't like the too-cruel Capitalist face on it). That was the point, that is all 'post mortem' stuff' after the event, we have yet to see what the EU intend to do so I will be reserving judgement.
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Post by Telemachus on Sept 28, 2017 15:37:01 GMT
Not really - but the EU exists and Ryanair is based in Ireland which is in the EU (one of the poorer countries - like Wales and Scotland - hoping to suck in money from the richer countries via the Brussels Bureaucraps). It just goes to show the EU can't handle things that are going askew. What would you expect the EU to do in the immediate short term?? Manufacture pilots? The fault for this lies fairly and squarely with the geezer that does the Ryan air holiday rostas (yer I know it wont in reality be just one individual) and MOL who has pissed his pilots off big style. No I don't think it is really to do with holiday rosters. That is just MoL's way of trying to blame it on the lazy pilots who are always on holiday. The simple truth is that they have too few pilots to service the routes. Why? Well probably because people leave to go to another airline as soon as they can. And whose fault is that?
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Post by Clinton Cool on Sept 28, 2017 15:52:30 GMT
Not really - but the EU exists and Ryanair is based in Ireland which is in the EU (one of the poorer countries - like Wales and Scotland - hoping to suck in money from the richer countries via the Brussels Bureaucraps). It just goes to show the EU can't handle things that are going askew. I thought Ireland was poorer, but a little research shows that their average income per head is significantly higher than that in Britain. Despite this, they remain grateful net recipients of bundles of EU cash. No wonder Geldof & co. demonstrate for Britain to remain, wouldn't want his republican brothers back home to be deprived of British cash eh?
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Post by thebfg on Sept 28, 2017 17:50:58 GMT
I would not be surprised to see Ryanair fold up very soon, and a 'new' similar airline emerge from the ashes, as with Swissair turning into Swiss (ie. what a Swizz!!!). I would say cancelling 18000 flights I a sign of a company making major changes to stay afloat.
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Post by thebfg on Sept 28, 2017 17:52:41 GMT
I suspect nearly all are. however the point was that the polish have had great pilots and there is no reason for them not to be now. However let us bear in mind that the attributes that make a great WW2 pilot are not the same as those that make a great airline pilot. Something to do with the "right stuff" being the "wrong stuff". Anyway be careful what you wish for. According to MoL pilots don't have to do much as the planes are so highly automated. He will think it a cunning plan to recruit dead polish pilots to fill the other seat at minimal cost (just the cost of some formaldehyde). you make a valid point. But the ones I knew were excellent pilots. I could not comment on their dog fighting skills but their acrobatic abilities were second to none.
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Post by Telemachus on Sept 28, 2017 18:25:57 GMT
However let us bear in mind that the attributes that make a great WW2 pilot are not the same as those that make a great airline pilot. Something to do with the "right stuff" being the "wrong stuff". Anyway be careful what you wish for. According to MoL pilots don't have to do much as the planes are so highly automated. He will think it a cunning plan to recruit dead polish pilots to fill the other seat at minimal cost (just the cost of some formaldehyde). you make a valid point. But the ones I knew were excellent pilots. I could not comment on their dog fighting skills but their acrobatic abilities were second to none. Ideal for keeping the passengers entertained during a technical delay. Cartwheels down the aisles etc. whilst the technician fixes the plane.
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Post by thebfg on Sept 28, 2017 18:28:16 GMT
you make a valid point. But the ones I knew were excellent pilots. I could not comment on their dog fighting skills but their acrobatic abilities were second to none. Ideal for keeping the passengers entertained during a technical delay. Cartwheels down the aisles etc. whilst the technician fixes the plane. doh. aerobatic. blooming auto wrong.
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