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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 18:31:13 GMT
Occasionally making contact with the infrastructure is an occupational hazard when you actually go boating, same as being taken to court by CRT is an occupational hazard when all you ever do is move your boat from its mooring to the towpath opposite and then back again two weeks later, as I'm sure Dickhead Dunkley will confirm. I'm fairly sure that this is the second time you've deployed this same inane response when reminded of last year's incident at Blackfriars Bridge, and it begs a question which someone with any concern or thought for the safety of others really should answer :- If you genuinely believe that the situation you were led into through the combined efforts of C&RT, the PLA, and your own lack of the requisite experience was as minor and inconsequential as you seem to think it was, then why were you so reluctant for the incident, and more importantly the circumstances that led up to it, to be reported in detail to the PLA so they could take the necessary steps to avoid repeats of what was in truth a highly dangerous incident from which you were very lucky to escape without serious damage, injury, or worse ? Ok, I’ve got it now. You and Stabby are are best of mates and it’s all a bit of a laugh. Just one thing, Vince was up front about making an error. After all we all cock up sometimes
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 5, 2019 18:57:04 GMT
I'm fairly sure that this is the second time you've deployed this same inane response when reminded of last year's incident at Blackfriars Bridge, and it begs a question which someone with any concern or thought for the safety of others really should answer :- If you genuinely believe that the situation you were led into through the combined efforts of C&RT, the PLA, and your own lack of the requisite experience was as minor and inconsequential as you seem to think it was, then why were you so reluctant for the incident, and more importantly the circumstances that led up to it, to be reported in detail to the PLA so they could take the necessary steps to avoid repeats of what was in truth a highly dangerous incident from which you were very lucky to escape without serious damage, injury, or worse ? Ok, I’ve got it now. You and Stabby are are best of mates and it’s all a bit of a laugh. Just one thing, Vince was up front about making an error. After all we all cock up sometimes No, . . you haven't 'got it' at all ! This isn't about him 'making an error', . . and it never was. Those primarily responsible for getting him into the incident with the outbound tug and tow at Blackfriars Bridge were C&RT and the PLA, whose combined efforts, or rather lack thereof, put an inexperienced amateur pleasure boat skipper into a situation which was way beyond the capabilities that could reasonably be expected of him. Try reading and understanding posts properly before commenting on them !
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 5, 2019 18:59:07 GMT
I hate to be a wet flannel, Tony, but have you contacted the PLA and CRT about this dangerous sport of theirs? I assume you have, by now. What did they say?
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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 5, 2019 19:02:16 GMT
And there was me thinking that Hurleston Locks were on the Llangollen Canal.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 19:07:34 GMT
Ok, I’ve got it now. You and Stabby are are best of mates and it’s all a bit of a laugh. Just one thing, Vince was up front about making an error. After all we all cock up sometimes No, . . you haven't 'got it' at all ! This isn't about him 'making an error', . . and it never was. Those primarily responsible for getting him into the incident with the outbound tug and tow at Blackfriars Bridge were C&RT and the PLA, whose combined efforts, or rather lack thereof, put an inexperienced amateur pleasure boat skipper into a situation which was way beyond the capabilities that could reasonably be expected of him. Try reading and understanding posts before responding to them ! I told you both I’d make a shit mediator.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 19:11:42 GMT
Come on Gazza ... never was your chilly cartoon friend more needed ...
all together ...
Rog
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 5, 2019 19:52:49 GMT
I hate to be a wet flannel, Tony, but have you contacted the PLA and CRT about this dangerous sport of theirs? I assume you have, by now. What did they say? I was in touch with both Navigation/Harbour Authorities at the time, as related at length and in detail on here. As one would expect C&RT were their usual unreceptive and unhelpful selves, the PLA on the other hand were both concerned and helpful - Stabby's incident was the latest of many recent, similar occurences - and only too pleased to have someone (me) with the appropriate experience and qualifications willing to assist in putting measures and procedures in place to reduce the chances of further, similar incidents. Getting to the bottom of what went wrong, and why, would have been easier and quicker with Stabby's co-operation, but none was forthcoming because he, and, it has to said, several TB contibutors/members, completely misunderstood the reasons behind my involving myself, and Stabby himself was nursing some crackpot notion that the PLA would be likely to 'ban' canal boats from the Thames tideway if they were told too much about it. I can't remember the thread title in which this was covered, but with a new pleasure boating season approaching and the works in the vicinity of the Blackfriars Bridges still ongoing, the PLA would still welcome Stabby's account of that day from his perspective, if only to be sure that all the assumptions that had to be made in the absence of any co-operation from him were correct and that the steps taken to avoid repeats have covered all foreseeable eventualities. NB. In case anyone's wondering about the qualifications mentioned above, it was an MCA Boatmasters Licence, issued under 'grandfather rights' in 2007, covering a variety commercial vessels of unrestricted tonnage, including the type and size of the tug and tow involved in the Stabby incident, on all UK Category A, B, C and D Waters.
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 5, 2019 20:15:41 GMT
I hate to be a wet flannel, Tony, but have you contacted the PLA and CRT about this dangerous sport of theirs? I assume you have, by now. What did they say? the PLA on the other hand were very concerned - Stabby's incident was the latest of many recent, similar occurences - and only too pleased to have someone (me) with the appropriate experience and qualifications willing to help them putting measures and procedures in place to reduce the chances of further, similar incidents. So, all is sweetness and light, and the PLA will, by now, have done something about it, such as written a proper manual for leisure boaters venturing on to the Thames from Limehouse.Getting to the bottom of what went wrong, and why, would have been easier and quicker with Stabby's co-operation, but none was forthcoming because he, and, it has to said, several TB contibutors/members, completely misunderstood the reasons behind my involving myself, and Stabby himself was nursing some crackpot notion that the PLA would be likely to 'ban' canal boats from the Thames tideway if they were told too much about it. Not necessarily crackpot, we have all seen how Health & Safety regulations can reach the bizarre. Guidelines in the pamphlet to be given to boaters, isn't that enough?I can't remember the thread title in which this was covered, but with a new pleasure boating season approaching and the works in the vicinity of the Blackfriars Bridges still ongoing, the PLA would still welcome Stabby's account of that day from his perspective, if only to be sure that all the assumptions that had to be made in the absence of any co-operation from him were correct and that the steps taken to avoid repeats have covered all foreseeable eventualities. Even if we knew what 'went wrong', do you seriously think skippers of big boats going downstream will be any less likely to try and scare narrowboats? London has stabbings every day, and I'm sure Sadiq Khan will just come out with "part and parcel of living in a big city".
You are right, but the moment has passed - and if you have let the PLA know, then that's about it, isn't it? It's just like people who go walking in the Lake District - some take precautions, enough clothes and food and drink, and a tent in case they have to overnight it, and companions in case of a broken ankle - others take silly risks and expect helicopters and Mountain Rescue to bring them a pizza when it all goes tits up. It's just the way things go. If the PLA were 'really responsible and concerned' they would have sorted this out years ago by themselves.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 5, 2019 20:57:40 GMT
So, all is sweetness and light, and the PLA will, by now, have done something about it, such as written a proper manual for leisure boaters venturing on to the Thames from Limehouse........................................................ Not necessarily crackpot, we have all seen how Health & Safety regulations can reach the bizarre. Guidelines in the pamphlet to be given to boaters, isn't that enough?....................................................... Even if we knew what 'went wrong', do you seriously think skippers of big boats going downstream will be any less likely to try and scare narrowboats? London has stabbings every day, and I'm sure Sadiq Khan will just come out with "part and parcel of living in a big city". .......................................................
You are right, but the moment has passed - and if you have let the PLA know, then that's about it, isn't it? It's just like people who go walking in the Lake District - some take precautions, enough clothes and food and drink, and a tent in case they have to overnight it, and companions in case of a broken ankle - others take silly risks and expect helicopters and Mountain Rescue to bring them a pizza when it all goes tits up. It's just the way things go. If the PLA were 'really responsible and concerned' they would have sorted this out years ago by themselves. No, Ross, none of this is about 'proper manuals' and commercial vessel skippers trying to 'scare narrowboats', it's about the fact that commercial vessels and pleasure craft don't mix well, . . they never have, and they never will, but their co-existence on some of our inland waterways is a fact of life, and it's in everyone's best interests to try and ensure that they share the available waters in the safest possible manner. The only way this 'ideal' will come about is for both factions to do their best to understand the problems and concerns that each has with regard to the other, and to communicate and co-operate to the greatest possible degree. Attitudes such as demonstrated by Stabby, and the sort of stuff you've just written won't achieve anything other than to perpetuate the present and far from satisfactory status quo on commercial waterways that are visited by day-dreaming ditchcrawlers who really don't have a clue about the potential dangers .
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 5, 2019 21:14:59 GMT
Assuming Stabby did contact the PLA and report his incident, what would happen then? My guess is nothing. There must have been thousands of boats going up and down the Thames through Blackfriar's Bridge since Stabby's tiff with a pier - if things were really bad then I'd have thought the PLA would have had a think about it by now. One small incident out of everything - it's a little like my bus slipping on ice and me almost going into a ditch, and I phone to the authority responsible for sanding the roads, my experience is that nothing gets done. Yes, I have contacted this authority - and, yup, nothing got done. I am inclined to write to the PLA and ask what their guidelines are for this sort of thing. Have they been thinking of banning narrowboats from the Limehouse - Brentford section of the Thames? Ah - there's this: "After a RNLI lifeboat had to rescue four people from a narrow boat in August the PLA has banned all hired boats from the tidal River Thames." December 2014: www.canaljunction.com/news/hire-narrowboats-banned-tidal-thames/1858"Holiday hire narrowboats have always made the short Tideway passage between the Grand Union Canal at Brentford and the Environment Agency’s (EA) non-tidal Thames navigation and sometimes the longer voyage down to the Regent’s Canal at Limehouse: The PLA seems to have just discovered this." I'm sorry, what was that - the PLA have "just discovered this" ??!! Bit slow, eh? www.pla.co.uk/Pre-season-narrowboat-prep / www.boatingonthethames.co.uk/Narrow-Boating - oh no, their recreational user's guide Teddington to Broadness is 'not available' - well, that's handy. A quick rummage on the Internet/PLA site and I can't see any info from the PLA about Blackfriars Bridge which would be useful for narrowboaters. They don't seem unduly worried about safety in this case.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 5, 2019 21:41:00 GMT
Assuming Stabby did contact the PLA and report his incident, what would happen then? . . . . . . . The PLA were aware of the incident from almost immediately after it happened, . . . they didn't want, or need, him to 'report' anything other than the circumstances, procedures, instructions and advice that caused him to be put into a potentially dangerous situation which he wasn't able or competent enough to deal with. As I've said before, their only concern, and intention, was to reduce to the greatest extent possible, the chances of repeats of similar dangerous incidents. The PLA did everything they could to achieve this end, and the only real impediment to that process was Stabby's idiotic refusal to co-operate in any way.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2019 21:50:48 GMT
Assuming Stabby did contact the PLA and report his incident, what would happen then? . . . . . . . The PLA were aware of the incident from almost immediately after it happened, . . . they didn't want, or need, him to 'report' anything other than the circumstances, procedures, instructions and advice that caused him to be put into a potentially dangerous situation which he wasn't able or competent enough to deal with. As I've said before, their only concern, and intention, was to reduce to the greatest extent possible, the chances of repeats of similar dangerous incidents. The PLA did everything they could to achieve this end, and the only real impediment to that process was Stabby's idiotic refusal to co-operate in any way. Did THEY ask him too? Sorry, if I can’t be bothered to go over hundreds of old posts again. BTW Tony, one of reasons I’ve not done that stretch yet is becaus I can see the risks in a narrow boat. I’d always planned to ask the St.Pancreas boat club (?) to help me out for my virgin trip. What would you suggest?
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 6, 2019 8:17:05 GMT
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 6, 2019 8:20:20 GMT
But there is this I found by putting the words 'blackfriars bridge dangerous to boats' in Google: 25.02.2011 Harbour masters have issued a warning to leisure craft after a narrow boat used a wrong bridge arch, forcing an oncoming passenger vessel to take avoiding action. In a special Notice to Mariners, the Port of London Authority has alerted boaters to the dangers of not knowing what navigation lights and markers on bridges mean. The PLA’s action has been prompted by an incident in November where a passenger vessel had its route blocked through Number 2 Arch at the northern end of Blackfriars Rail Bridge by a narrow boat on the wrong side of the river. Harbour masters say that, had the passenger vessel arrived a few moments earlier, both vessels could have been in danger of collision within the confines of the bridge arch. Instead, the passenger vessel took avoiding action. A port authority patrol crew, called in to investigate the incident, intercepted the narrow boat further downriver and quizzed its owner. He told them he’d become confused by the bridge navigation lights. “At the time of the incident, there had been three closed arches at Blackfriars, where the bridge is being upgraded. There was a fourth arch showing ‘main working arch' lights, and a fifth showing no lights,” said a Harbour Master from the Port of London Authority. “The narrow boater thought he had to use the ‘main working arch’ – which is designated for commercial vessels - even though it was on the wrong side of the river. He didn’t realise that he could use the arch showing no lights. “Incidents like this show why it’s crucial that Thames leisure users fully understand the ‘rules of the road’ BEFORE they enter the tidal river.” www.pla.co.uk/Read-the-Signs
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 6, 2019 8:23:56 GMT
"He didn’t realise that he could use the arch showing no lights."
So why don't the PLA put up a big sign saying 'non commercial pleasure craft use this arch' above the arch? This suggests to me that there is room for improvement in the PLA's approach to safety.
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