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Post by Higgs on May 21, 2016 8:32:59 GMT
Whats the general consensus on here as how its going to end up ? I think the IN camp will probably win but not with sufficient number to kill the issue.
I think the lemmings will commit democratic suicide and be swayed by the wallet argument. I'm trying to have more faith in peoples' common sense, though, I suppose that I could question my own common sense, but I'm sticking with it and sweating a bit on the outcome.
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Post by Higgs on May 21, 2016 8:36:55 GMT
I think the lemmings will commit democratic suicide and be swayed by the wallet argument. I'm trying to have more faith in peoples' common sense, though.
I to be honest have been disappointed with the Brexit Campaign,it hasn't caught fire in my opinion, a couple of Tories have grabbed the polar opposites for Political Advancement and this is what we are left with
I accidentally made a post when it was meant to be an edit.
Well, I was surprised to see the BREXIT video on even the most unlikely searches of Youtube. Sometimes, though, I think Boris should tone down his hyperbole. It plays right into the hands of the other side.
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Post by Mr Stabby on May 21, 2016 9:02:17 GMT
Whats the general consensus on here as how its going to end up ? I think the IN camp will probably win but not with sufficient number to kill the issue. At the moment it seems to me that public sentiment favours Brexit although it all really hinges on how the mainstream media spins it in the last few days before the vote.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2016 9:24:29 GMT
Whats the general consensus on here as how its going to end up ? I think the IN camp will probably win but not with sufficient number to kill the issue. At the moment it seems to me that public sentiment favours Brexit although it all really hinges on how the mainstream media spins it in the last few days before the vote. I genuinely hope you have that right
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Post by Higgs on May 21, 2016 9:35:52 GMT
It's a strange thing. I'm finding those for whom I have no support ideologically, in a general election, are at least speaking a similar language on the EU debate. Party politics have taken a second place, except I suppose with Farage. Those that wish to exit are placing their belief in the UK. Those that want to stay in are in my opinion refusing to accept that they would be throwing away more than they would gain. The in group promise the Midas touch. We all know where that got King Midas, he killed off everything he cared for with his lust for gold. Or, he realised that gold wasn't what he had at first thought would be all in answer to his every dream.
One other thing. They go on and on about trade and the market. The EU should probably have remained a common marketplace and not gone down the road it has, which is so different than just seeking trade deals. Trade is one thing, losing democratic answerability to its voters is miles beyond what is acceptable.
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Post by Clinton Cool on May 21, 2016 11:53:50 GMT
Hopefully it will piss down on the day, with gale force winds. There's no doubt that those who want out are generally more passionate in their view than those who want in. If a monsoon hits Britain those wanting in will more than likely stay inside with their playstations, kick the cat, watch porn or whatever they usually do all day. The hardy outers will don waterproofs, open their umbrellas and march en masse to the poling station ensuring a glorious, if slightly sodden, victory.
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Post by quaysider on May 21, 2016 14:05:01 GMT
I still haven't decided how to vote on the day - my heart says leave but as someone who needs to re-mortgage when my current "deal" (if you can call it that) expires in August, could really do with status quo on the financial side of things ... I accept I don't know enough about the big picture and don't really trust much of what the media pushes anyway.
Sometimes when there is No PERFECT outcome, you need to opt for the one that does you - personally LEAST damage.
or am I back to tossing a coin again?
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Post by naughtyfox on May 21, 2016 16:35:33 GMT
Yes, that's the Me! Me! Me! attitude. You should be considering your country and your fellow citizens, who are all jolly good chaps don'tchaknow. No matter what hardships you may have to endure! ps - can you lend me a tenner?
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Post by Clinton Cool on May 21, 2016 21:43:50 GMT
My own 'out' vote will be very much against my personal self interest. As a buy to let landlord I should want swathes of new people to enter the country; create more demand to rent my houses; so I can can cash in on higher rents. After all, successive tory governments will ensure that not enough houses are built to satisfy demand so their chums can get richer. And it will be successive tory governments; Corbyn and his merry band of socialists/Marxists/ Jew haters are miles away from being vaguely electable.
And yet I'll still vote out. I don't want Britain to 'equalise' itself with Poland, Lithuania and the like.
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Post by Mr Stabby on May 21, 2016 21:58:44 GMT
I made a small fortune from property ownership. Enough to start my own business, enough to buy my narrowboat, but even while my house was earning more than I did, I constantly said "this is all wrong, and it will end in tears before bedtime".
And the irony is that I only made that money because I sold up. For anybody wanting to move from a starter home to a family home, house price increases just make the gap harder to bridge.
It is said that young people are the most likely to vote to stay in the eu. I'm sure "the generation who stole from their children" will be grateful.
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Post by Higgs on May 22, 2016 2:57:38 GMT
House prices have become very unreasonable. By comparison, and in relative terms, you could buy a house for 3.5 times your annual wage in 1975; in a very good part of the town, not bargain basement. Only speaking in relative terms as multiples of annual wage. What would the comparison be today? They've got everyone playing the market. Best bank deals, best energy deals; swop your providers next year. 'Book three years in advance' and you too could buy a rail fare that doesn't look mental. This is of course due to the 'visionary' economic plans of parliament; the people that disintegrated the power industry and the rail industry. "Competition is healthy". Words are fecking easy.
Politicians are arrogant and wreckless - with your trust.
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Post by quaysider on May 22, 2016 5:23:56 GMT
As I'm discussing this and openly asking people's opinions in real life about this, I'm finding more and more of the older ones - the ones who are ALREADY financially secure, who've already made their money from good pension pots and massively inflated house prices... the ones who really don't need to worry about the value of THEIR homes (as their - in comparison tiny mortgages have LONG since been paid off) ARE keen to exit. Our parents are respectfullly included in this!
It does appear in some cases they are voting for what they believe to be for the good of all - BUT with scant thought about their own kids, who've HAD to borrow massive amounts in order to be able to buy our homes - many of us, still with many years left on our mortgages... for whom, an equalisation (if we must call it that) in property values would be disastrous... if you read the terms of your mortgages, the "fekcers - sorry lenders" can at any time, re-value your property AND request we reduce THEIR risk! - Just take a look at all the buy to let landlords, teetering on the edge that companies such as paragon "push" over - JUST to be able to take the property into their OWN distressed property management company in order to be able to charge fees... thus generating an income stream to replace some of what they lost when they were unable to lend as much as they had been doing...
Many of our friends are so blinkered, looking back at rose coloured memories of times before Europe. I'm not sure if they are able to look rationally at the potential for economic disaster and instability - the crash of 2008 will seem like a walk in the park compared to riots on the streets.
The uk does seem to have become a nation that doesn't WANT to work hard to build a better society - ME on the other hand, have to work 70+ hours a week to pay my way and achieve anything. I could sit on my arse, light up a fag and head down the off-licence to buy cheap cider like many do ... but I don't - instead, I slog on trying to keep my head above water, pay my bills and "hope" for a time when I'll have enough saved to live on once the mortgage is paid down.
Whilst I do agree, we've given up too much to Europe already, I also think that in basic terms, the child in the playground that stamps his feet and refuses to play any more because he didn't win a particular game will engender little if any respect from the other kids - HOW can he work to make the rules of the game better, if he's taken his toys home? -
I'm NOT pro EU but I do have to stand by my decision and vote. I voted tory but hoped for another coalition - the lib dems did act as a conscience and deserve more credit for the good they did last time round.
OK - so cameron lies... they all do... WE all do - it's called politics and diplomacy for a reason... but surely they know more about the complex world of macro economics than the rest of us do? - don't they?
I think I'm still back to my coin on 23rd June ;-)
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2016 7:06:10 GMT
As I'm discussing this and openly asking people's opinions in real life about this, I'm finding more and more of the older ones - the ones who are ALREADY financially secure, who've already made their money from good pension pots and massively inflated house prices... the ones who really don't need to worry about the value of THEIR homes (as their - in comparison tiny mortgages have LONG since been paid off) ARE keen to exit. Our parents are respectfullly included in this! It does appear in some cases they are voting for what they believe to be for the good of all - BUT with scant thought about their own kids, who've HAD to borrow massive amounts in order to be able to buy our homes - many of us, still with many years left on our mortgages... for whom, an equalisation (if we must call it that) in property values would be disastrous... if you read the terms of your mortgages, the "fekcers - sorry lenders" can at any time, re-value your property AND request we reduce THEIR risk! - Just take a look at all the buy to let landlords, teetering on the edge that companies such as paragon "push" over - JUST to be able to take the property into their OWN distressed property management company in order to be able to charge fees... thus generating an income stream to replace some of what they lost when they were unable to lend as much as they had been doing... Many of our friends are so blinkered, looking back at rose coloured memories of times before Europe. I'm not sure if they are able to look rationally at the potential for economic disaster and instability - the crash of 2008 will seem like a walk in the park compared to riots on the streets. The uk does seem to have become a nation that doesn't WANT to work hard to build a better society - ME on the other hand, have to work 70+ hours a week to pay my way and achieve anything. I could sit on my arse, light up a fag and head down the off-licence to buy cheap cider like many do ... but I don't - instead, I slog on trying to keep my head above water, pay my bills and "hope" for a time when I'll have enough saved to live on once the mortgage is paid down. Whilst I do agree, we've given up too much to Europe already, I also think that in basic terms, the child in the playground that stamps his feet and refuses to play any more because he didn't win a particular game will engender little if any respect from the other kids - HOW can he work to make the rules of the game better, if he's taken his toys home? - I'm NOT pro EU but I do have to stand by my decision and vote. I voted tory but hoped for another coalition - the lib dems did act as a conscience and deserve more credit for the good they did last time round. OK - so cameron lies... they all do... WE all do - it's called politics and diplomacy for a reason... but surely they know more about the complex world of macro economics than the rest of us do? - don't they? I think I'm still back to my coin on 23rd June ;-) Do you know I started to reply to your post point by point then I thought to myself when I got to your last line,whats the point? Your Financial Position it seems to me,is dictating your thinking and I believe the debate goes much wider than that. So much so for me in fact that I would gladly see and participate in any riots in the streets and I am far from an Anarchist or being a member of the lazy feckless underclass you allude to.I am happy to put alternatives to each of your paragraphs if it genuinely helps ?this is one of those cases where a beer is called for and a good discussion amongst friends I think.
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Post by Mr Stabby on May 22, 2016 7:50:05 GMT
It does appear in some cases they are voting for what they believe to be for the good of all - BUT with scant thought about their own kids, who've HAD to borrow massive amounts in order to be able to buy our homes - many of us, still with many years left on our mortgages... for whom, an equalisation (if we must call it that) in property values would be disastrous... if you read the terms of your mortgages, the "fekcers - sorry lenders" can at any time, re-value your property AND request we reduce THEIR risk! Personally... I think house prices are in a massive bubble which is only being kept inflated by near zero interest rates, and there will be a correction when these return to historically average levels, which will happen regardless of whether we remain in or leave the eu. Although I have no vested interest either way, I'd welcome lower house prices for the sake of young people who are unable to get on the property ladder.
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Post by Higgs on May 22, 2016 8:55:05 GMT
OK - so cameron lies... they all do... WE all do - it's called politics and diplomacy for a reason... but surely they know more about the complex world of macro economics than the rest of us do? - don't they?
I think I'm still back to my coin on 23rd June ;-)
Do you really think that your parents, who've paid their mortgage off, are responsible for the fact that you and your generation are faced with the uncertainties you are. I've emphasized the line that is you making a mistake. In the face of all of your doubts about the honesty of politicians and the advantage that the lenders are playing by their self serving clauses, you are still willing to make excuses for them. It isn't an uncommon position.
My own boating protest is that CRT are playing a self-serving position and forcing people in marinas to pay for a boat licence. They wave a law at the marinas and dictate the conditions of the NAA. The marinas wave their paltry T&C's at the boater and have no law backing their enforcement. You can interpret what you see.
What guarantees do you have that the EU will serve you any better than not being in it. Your kids, if you have any, may ask you where their vote went.
I'm no economist, but huge companies being able to skive off paying tax into the countries they are making wads off seems to me to just about sum up how you'll be treated as a voter in the EU. They take, you give, that's the way - it suits them, they have the power, too. They want even more, there's no end to the greedy farts grasping for power and more fortune.
"Many of our friends are so blinkered, looking back at rose coloured memories of times before Europe. I'm not sure if they are able to look rationally at the potential for economic disaster and instability - the crash of 2008 will seem like a walk in the park compared to riots on the streets."
The riots in the street is a precursor to more riots and discontent. You've seen a financial crash in 2008, kicked off when banks like Northern Rock could no longer sell on their debts. The financial players finally came to the end of their little scam. The EU is another scam. But, please go on believing in the institutions that in most peoples' minds should be upright and ethical. Just ditch the upright and ethical pre conditions. That way, you won't be disappointed.
In being older, I suppose it is easier to see one promise after another being broken and, though I may have been more sympathetic to your view when I was 25, in the belief that people in power must know more than me and know what they're doing, that is nowhere near what I think now. You don't need to know the innards of a car, but when it's tested you tell, usually tell, when one's a pig in a poke. Cosmetics can deceive.
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